More Thoughts and some crashes

[BoltBait]

Main UI:

I think you should add the current foreground/background color indicator to the tool bar (any one of them, but probably the "tool" tool bar.)

The "Window" menu should have access to switch between the different open graphics. I see there is a hot-key for switching images (Ctrl-Tab). Nice.

In the new color docker:

I don't think the graphical H indicator (of the HSV area) should change color. Ever.

It is very confusing as it works now. It should always look like a full-color, bright rainbow.

Left-Click on the new color wells should select primary color, Right-Click should select secondary color.

Deleting a color is not very intuitive. It should work one of two ways:

1) Click to select a color (and it would remain highlighted, outlined), then click the X
or
2) Click the X and the cursor changes to an arrow with an X in the corner to indicate that you are in "delete mode". Other controls should be disabled in this mode. To cancel the mode, click the X again or press ESC.

When saving a color the cursor should change to indicate that you are in "save mode".

Clicking Save and entering illegal characters causes a crash. Try typing a file name with a ">" character in it. I'll let you make your own crash log for that one.

Here's another crash: Open a pallet file using notepad, change one of the colors to FFXXYYZZ and save the file. Load it. Save it to a new name. Crash.

Sorry if my tone is a bit on the harsh side. I'm at work.

[Illnab1024]

Here are some with which I agree:

...

Left-Click on the new color wells should select primary color, Right-Click should select secondary color.

...

2) Click the X and the cursor changes to an arrow with an X in the corner to indicate that you are in "delete mode". Other controls should be disabled in this mode. To cancel the mode, click the X again or press ESC.

...

I don't exactly agree with the others...

For your first plaint: It is in the colors window, and I think that's a better place, anyway...

As to your second: That's pretty fine, but there is already a more intuitive method...

And your third: They are all interdependent. I find that very nice. And it is more intuitive to see what color you are getting, and those that you will get.

6th: "When saving a color the cursor should change to indicate that you are in 'save mode'."

Just kinda confusing, unless you're a goldfish...

And the rest are crashes...

[BoltBait]

Here are some with which I agree:

For your first plaint: It is in the colors window, and I think that's a better place, anyway...

I usually hide all of the dockers to keep them out of the way. Espically the color one, which seems huge even in "less" mode. Maybe its because my laptop screen is 1024x768.

Currently on the new tool bar you can see all kinds of info about how your new box will be drawn (outline/fill mode, alias mode, alpha blending, brush, etc.) you just can't see what color it will be.

And your third: They are all interdependent. I find that very nice. And it is more intuitive to see what color you are getting, and those that you will get.

When you currently have black as your selected color, the entire H line is black. Sliding the arrow from one black area to another does not give you a real indication of what color you will get if you start sliding the S or V sliders. That's all I'm getting at.

Don't get me wrong. I simply LOVE the new sliders. I just think it would be more intuitive if the H slider indicator was always fully "lit".

Oh, and you can call me goldfish.

[Crazy Man Dan]

On a related note, regarding the Colors window:

Right now, there's no way to change the Value of a color without having the More window enabled. One can change the Hue and Saturation on the color wheel itself, but to make the color darker, you have to open the More tab.

There's some unused space under the colors display and above the Palette tools... :wink:

[Picc84]

There's some unused space under the colors display and above the Palette tools... :wink:

I dont know how crowed that would look... you dont want EVERYTHING bunched up all togeather... ?

[Rick Brewster]

Ok I'm finally replying to this. You wrote a lot.

1) Colors in the toolbar: Well, I can see the utility here but it also presents a problem of having redundant UI. Some users might think, "Which color thing do I click on to change stuff?" I'll keep thinking about this one.

2) Hue slider -- Well, this would make the hue slider not "wysiwyg," but really you could entertain logic for it working either way. How about I make it work in the way you suggest, and we'll see if it confuses people. If not, it'll stick.

3) Left-click vs. Right-click -- See, this brings up a big design conundrum.

The way the Colors window works, it has the notion of which color you have selected ("which color" meaning "primary" or "secondary" in this case). If right click were to set the secondary color and left click were to set the primary color, then there would be no point in having the dropdown box for choosing primary or secondary. Or, if you had Secondary chosen in the dropdown ... should right click set the primary, and left click set the secondary? It would quickly become confusing.

I think it would be sufficient to have: 1) a shortcut for swapping the colors, 'X'. I'm not sure why we don't have this already. 2) a shortcut for swapping between primary/secondary being active, 'C'. This would take over the shortcut for Clone Stamp (so I'd give it a new shortcut of course). Anyway I think this would still give quick access to let you do what you need to do while maintaining simplicity and detouring the UI confusion I mentioned above.

4) Crash w/ save palette + illegal chars: I filed a bug. Probably very simple.

5) "Here's another crash ..." ... filed another bug. Probably a simple oversight on my part.

Also: Ctrl+Shift+Tab also works for switching images. Ctrl+# and Alt+# also work for the first ten images. I also plan on adding the list of open images to the Window menu. Also plan on having an 'x' for close and a '*' for 'this image has unsaved changes.'

Remember ... pre-alpha It is very good to get this feedback though, thanks!

[BoltBait]

Ok I'm finally replying to this. You wrote a lot.

1) Colors in the toolbar: Well, I can see the utility here but it also presents a problem of having redundant UI. Some users might think, "Which color thing do I click on to change stuff?" I'll keep thinking about this one.

2) Hue slider -- Well, this would make the hue slider not "wysiwyg," but really you could entertain logic for it working either way. How about I make it work in the way you suggest, and we'll see if it confuses people. If not, it'll stick.

3) Left-click vs. Right-click -- See, this brings up a big design conundrum.

The way the Colors window works, it has the notion of which color you have selected ("which color" meaning "primary" or "secondary" in this case). If right click were to set the secondary color and left click were to set the primary color, then there would be no point in having the dropdown box for choosing primary or secondary. Or, if you had Secondary chosen in the dropdown ... should right click set the primary, and left click set the secondary? It would quickly become confusing.

I think it would be sufficient to have: 1) a shortcut for swapping the colors, 'X'. I'm not sure why we don't have this already. 2) a shortcut for swapping between primary/secondary being active, 'C'. This would take over the shortcut for Clone Stamp (so I'd give it a new shortcut of course). Anyway I think this would still give quick access to let you do what you need to do while maintaining simplicity and detouring the UI confusion I mentioned above.

4) Crash w/ save palette + illegal chars: I filed a bug. Probably very simple.

5) "Here's another crash ..." ... filed another bug. Probably a simple oversight on my part.

Also: Ctrl+Shift+Tab also works for switching images. Ctrl+# and Alt+# also work for the first ten images. I also plan on adding the list of open images to the Window menu. Also plan on having an 'x' for close and a '*' for 'this image has unsaved changes.'

Remember ... pre-alpha It is very good to get this feedback though, thanks!

1) You could have a button on the tool bar showing the overlapping squares of foreground/background color. When the user clicks the button, the color docker is revealed (if hidden) and expanded.

2) Thanks!

3) Actually, it would be very simple this way: In the color wells, clicking with primary mouse button selects the color into the foreground color and changes the dropdown to "Primary". Clicking the secondary mouse button selects the color into the background color and changes the dropdown to "Secondary". No other functionality need be changed.

Of course, you would not want this to happen during a save or delete action from the palet.

4) Here is a list of illegal characters: \ / : * ? " |

5) Cool.

I know its pre-alpha. But, I wanted to get my suggestions in early.

Paint.net is really coming along. I hardly ever open Corel PhotoPaint any more. Your UI is much more intuitive, so I prefer it. (Speaking of which, I think I'll start keeping notes of when I must use Corel and make more suggestions.)

[Rick Brewster]

3) No it's not that easy. If you right-click and then the selection is changed to Secondary in the dropdown, then at that point the left-click will start behaving to choose the secondary color. If you were to choose Secondary in the dropdown manually, this is what you would expect.

[BoltBait]

I see your point. Hmmm...

That damn drop down is the problem. Get rid of it.

(OK, I'll keep thinking)

[Rick Brewster]

Yes at which point some people wouldn't know how to set the secondary color :?

[Illnab1024]

A simple shortcut to switch colors would be easier and mre intuitive IMHO

[Rick Brewster]

Well, the 'x' shortcut for swapping the colors should be functional in the new build (2442). The other shortcut, for switching the dropdown's selection, is still forthcoming.

[Bob]

Why a dropdown and not a radio button per example?

[Illnab1024]

Compactness...

[BoltBait]

Why a dropdown and not a radio button per example?

Easier to localize.

Rick, any chance for a third color for the middle mouse button? :shock:

[Rick Brewster]

nope

[BoltBait]

3) Left-click vs. Right-click -- See, this brings up a big design conundrum.

The way the Colors window works, it has the notion of which color you have selected ("which color" meaning "primary" or "secondary" in this case). If right click were to set the secondary color and left click were to set the primary color, then there would be no point in having the dropdown box for choosing primary or secondary. Or, if you had Secondary chosen in the dropdown ... should right click set the primary, and left click set the secondary? It would quickly become confusing.

I think it would be sufficient to have: 1) a shortcut for swapping the colors, 'X'. I'm not sure why we don't have this already. 2) a shortcut for swapping between primary/secondary being active, 'C'. This would take over the shortcut for Clone Stamp (so I'd give it a new shortcut of course). Anyway I think this would still give quick access to let you do what you need to do while maintaining simplicity and detouring the UI confusion I mentioned above.

I've been thinking a lot about this left-click vs. right-click thing as I really would like to see color selection similar to the way MS Paint does it (left-click=primary, right-click=secondary).

I think it could work if you changed the colors docker to something like this:

What do you think?

EDIT: Here's another crash for you. I clicked Help > Check for updates... and it didn't find any so I clicked the Cancel button to close that dialog box. Crash.

This text file was created because Paint.NET crashed.
Please e-mail this file to feedback@getpaint.net so we can diagnose and fix the problem.

Application version: Paint.NET v3.0 (Milestone 1 Release build 3.0.2440.21027)
Time of crash: 9/9/2006 10:18:50 PM
Application uptime: 00:00:25.9568064
OS Version: 5.1.2600.131072 Service Pack 2 Workstation x86
.NET Framework version: 2.0.50727.42 x86
Processor: 1x Intel(R) Pentium(R) M processor 1500MHz
Physical memory: 510 MB

Exception details:
System.NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object.
  at PaintDotNet.StateMachineExecutor.Abort()
  at PaintDotNet.Updates.UpdatesDialog.CloseButton_Click(Object sender, EventArgs e)
  at System.Windows.Forms.Control.OnClick(EventArgs e)
  at System.Windows.Forms.Button.OnClick(EventArgs e)
  at System.Windows.Forms.Button.OnMouseUp(MouseEventArgs mevent)
  at System.Windows.Forms.Control.WmMouseUp(Message& m, MouseButtons button, Int32 clicks)
  at System.Windows.Forms.Control.WndProc(Message& m)
  at System.Windows.Forms.ButtonBase.WndProc(Message& m)
  at System.Windows.Forms.Button.WndProc(Message& m)
  at System.Windows.Forms.Control.ControlNativeWindow.OnMessage(Message& m)
  at System.Windows.Forms.Control.ControlNativeWindow.WndProc(Message& m)
  at System.Windows.Forms.NativeWindow.Callback(IntPtr hWnd, Int32 msg, IntPtr wparam, IntPtr lparam)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BTW, I don't know if it is because I am behind a firewall here at Intel, but the checking ALWAYS fails the first time. I check again and it finds something. Strange.

Another bug? When I did finally get it to download version 2442 it warned me that it needed to close in order to complete the update. I clicked ok and nothing happened. I manually closed paint.net and ran it again--it is still at build 2440.

Ummm... Rick, simply graying out the Save button when illegal characters are entered in the save pallet box is probably not a good idea. This could really confuse and frustrate the users. How about giving them a warning message with instructions on how to fix the problem while listing the illegal characters?

[Rick Brewster]

1) Colors window redesign -- I don't really like this design. It is true that it is functional, but it changes the paradigm in which the window works by splitting it into two areas that work in two different ways. How is the user supposed to know that they need to right click in the palette to set the secondary color, even if they've chosen 'secondary' in the lower portion? I'm not saying this to attack or even disagree with your opinion about how you would like this to work. However, I believe that your design is beneficial in one area while sacrificing simplicity and discoverability for all other uses.

Part of the reason for having the primary/secondary dropdown list is that I don't believe that right-click should be required for any of the "standard" UI things that are targeted at all users. This way it is just plainly obvious how you are supposed to go about setting the secondary color.

2) Crash: Yeah that particular crash should be fixed in 2442+. This is an area of the code that still needs a lot of error handling and reporting, and I have a bug filed on it.

3) Fails-first-time: Hmm, interesting. What Paint.NET does is build up a list of proxies to communicate through (this list includes a "no proxy" item), and then it tries them all in turn until it finds one that works or discovers that none of them work. Maybe I should just make it loop through this list twice? I'll file a bug on this. You'll have to tell me whether this works though.

4) Update-and-close bug: Interesting. I'll file a bug.

5) Save-disabled: Yeah, don't worry. There's just so much new code that it's not possible to get it all perfect on the first pass. Plus sometimes I just get bored and have to move on, knowing that there is some fit and finish that is left to do. This is one of those areas -- in other parts of the UI we turn the text box red to indicate that it has an invalid value, and I'll do something similar here as well.

[Rick Brewster]

Follow up:

2, 3, 4, and 5 are addressed in 2445. (5 is not necessarily 'fully' addressed -- I highlight the textbox in red for now)