Trouble with Paint.Net and VueMinder Calendar

[kdrive]

Does anyone here use VueMinder Calendar? (I found the Windows calendar to be unreliable.)

I am having problems when I run Paint.Net and this Calendar program.

I don't have anything else running besides those two programs.

The problem is that, when I use Paint.Net with the Calendar program running, Paint.Net "sticks" - That is, there is about a ten to fifteen second delay when I try to do anything: Select a tool or menu, perform a function from one of the menus, etc.

If I save after I do anything in Paint.Net it seems to help. If I exit the Calendar I don't have the problem. This tells me it might be a memory problem; but, I am just guessing. I have to turn off the Calendar to get things done in Paint.Net.

If anyone has any suggestions, I would appreciate it. Is there another free calendar program out there that I can try?

I am running MS Vista on a Dell Inspiron 1501 laptop. I installed VueMInder Calendar a few months ago. I have 2 GB of memory and I don't run any other program except Paint.Net. The calendar runs in the background.

K

[david.atwell]

Why can't you use the Windows calendar? I've never had a problem with the calendar built in to Windows.

That said, I think you've found the problem. Probably a memory issue. 2GB, while tons of RAM just a few years ago, is really on the small side nowadays. I recommend doing what you already seem to be doing - just shut down the calendar while using PdN and reopening it when you're done.

If it's such a memory hog, though, you should probably get a new calendar. I see no reason for a simple calendar program to be so huge.

[kdrive]

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Edited November 26, 2011 by kdrive

[kdrive]

David:

Thanks for the reply.

The problem I have with Windows Calendar is that it will not pop up reminders consistently. It often misses them. And, that is what I use a calendar on my computer for: popup reminders.

I have posted to and have read various Microsoft and Vista forums. Others have the same problem. I have never found a solution or a good explanation even though some of the MS forums are monitored by MS professionals.

From what I understand, the Calendar app isn't included in Windows 7. The suggestion is often to use the Windows Live (online) calendar. Since I often work off-line, this is not an option for me. VueMinder is free (from CNET.com) and has never missed a popup reminder that I have set.

As far as being a memory issue: I don't think it's a matter of how much memory the two apps are using. I think it is a problem with the two apps using the same resource whether it be memory or something else in the system software. Memory was just my guess on my part. But, I used to work for a software company and this was an issue at time when two apps conflicted.

[jim100361]

http://www.vueminder.com/forums/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=588&p=2561&hilit=Memory#p2561

For what it's worth: At the link above there is a discussion in their forums about a memory issue and some business about Windows having trouble allocating memory to .NET apps and such. You may wish to read it and maybe from there better judge how you wll proceed.

[david.atwell]

How about Google Calendar offline? Seems pretty small, and it would sync up every time you get online.

[kdrive]

http://www.vueminder...it=Memory#p2561

For what it's worth: At the link above there is a discussion in their forums about a memory issue and some business about Windows having trouble allocating memory to .NET apps and such. You may wish to read it and maybe from there better judge how you wll proceed.

Thanks, Jim.

I was just posting a reply and read your suggestion. I will definitely look at that link.

K

[Rick Brewster]

Sounds like VueMinder has memory leaks. They should invest in a copy of SciTech Memory Profiler.

[kdrive]

How about Google Calendar offline? Seems pretty small, and it would sync up every time you get online.

David:

I did look into Google Calendar Offline. I think I need Chrome, Google Calendar and some other things to get reminders. I think I need something called "Gears" and some other add-on. I may look into that option.

K

[kdrive]

Hmm...

I just found "Efficient Reminder Free" at CNET downloads.

http://download.cnet.com/Efficient-Reminder-Free/3000-2124_4-10921373.html?tag=mncol;3

Edited November 27, 2011 by kdrive

[kdrive]

The forum at VueMinder is trying to blame Paint.Net.

http://www.vueminder...80&p=2809#p2809

My response to this was:

"That is very strange because I have been using Paint.Net for a few years now. I often have it open with multiple (3 or more) large photo images (over 3000 KB each), MS word, and other applications open. (I have to turn off VueMinder Calendar to do this.) I never had any problems until I started using VueMinder Calendar."

My experience shows differently.

Edited November 28, 2011 by kdrive

[Rick Brewster]

Well, Paint.NET is certainly happy to consume lots of memory. The 500+ MB figure reported in that forum post is not surprising. Images take up a lot of memory, much more than their size on disk would indicate. I use the SciTech Memory Profiler to check for leaks, and I do fix them. The latest version (3.5.10) should be leak-free (there were some leaks, but they were fixed about a year ago or something). The next version, 4.0, has already made big strides towards making it possible to for me to significantly reduce memory pressure. For instance, if a region of an image is completely transparent, why allocate any storage for it? Just store a rectangle indicating where the layer is empty, and skip over it when doing layer composition, etc.

However, I'm doubtful that Paint.NET is doing anything "special" or "bad" with regards to memory "hogging" (other than the "hogging" itself). It doesn't make us of VirtualLock(), for instance. It's not due to both apps sitting on .NET, since Windows' memory manager doesn't treat .NET in any special way: a process asks for memory, it gets it. If you had another application using 500MB instead of Paint.NET, then the problem would be the same. Paint.NET just uses a lot of memory when opening large images (a 3MB JPEG is, in fact, a fairly large image after it's decompressed). If you get 2 apps using lots of memory, and you don't have enough physical memory for Windows to keep everyone happy, then paging will result and your hard drive will go bananas.

Here's a tip: if you're seeing these 10-15 second delays and you're seeing your hard drive light going crazy, then it's certainly paging, or "thrashing." (paging is where it moves pages of memory, which are 4KB each, from physical memory into other storage, e.g. the page file aka swap file on your hard drive. if that memory page is needed later, then it's moved back into physical memory, and something else probably gets the boot into the page file. if this happens a lot, it's sometimes called thrashing.)

The solution is to either use apps that use less memory, or get more memory (which is cheap). I'm not sure why they're trying to point fingers (note to Dan: Paint.NET isn't as "simple" as you may think). I know exactly how and why Paint.NET allocates memory, and there's even a thread somewhere that gives you a simple formula to calculate it, but I don't know the internal details of VueMinder's memory allocation. It could be doing something awesome that just needs lots of memory, or maybe they're using some data structures that are very liberal with memory usage*, or maybe they do have some leaks, or maybe they should sprinkle around a few carefully orchestrated calls to System.GC.Collect(). Paint.NET calls that every time it emits a new history item, for instance, and it does help. GC.Collect() won't fix leaks (if there are any) but it can serve as a consistent, helpful tug on the reigns of the .NET memory manager and garbage collector.

* This actually happens pretty often. "I'm only allocating 1000 objects!" ... "Yes but they're each stored in a linked list. Each node in the linked list is a separate memory allocation that consumes 16 bytes + a reference to your item + a reference to the list container + a reference to a root lock object. And your item allocates 3 other objects. And the UI for this creates 1 control for each item and each of those allocates 4 objects and refers to 10 other objects. So you really have 10,000 objects and an object graph with 20,000 edges." ... "Oh, interesting." When using WPF data binding, for instance, it uses a staggering amount of internal bookkeeping objects such as small lists and WeakReferences.

[david.atwell]

David:

I did look into Google Calendar Offline. I think I need Chrome, Google Calendar and some other things to get reminders. I think I need something called "Gears" and some other add-on. I may look into that option.

K

Chrome comes with Gears. From what I understand, all you need is Chrome+Google Calendar. I've always found Google Calendar to be reliable; not sure how they'd be offline, though.

@Rick: Do people really expect Paint.NET to be some small, two-bit utility? Especially when they feed it gallons of data? I mean, it's nowhere near as huge as an Adobe product, I'll give it that, but it really has too many features to be a Notepad-sized program.

[kdrive]

Chrome comes with Gears. From what I understand, all you need is Chrome+Google Calendar. I've always found Google Calendar to be reliable; not sure how they'd be offline, though.

@Rick: Do people really expect Paint.NET to be some small, two-bit utility? Especially when they feed it gallons of data? I mean, it's nowhere near as huge as an Adobe product, I'll give it that, but it really has too many features to be a Notepad-sized program.

David:

I will look into Google more. Thanks for mentioning it.

I do use Google SketchUp a lot just for fun.

There is a lot out there offered by Google.

K

[kdrive]

I tried to click on the link above to the VueMinder Forum. My thread is gone!

I was polite about my problems because I was seeking a solution. I didn't bash the Calendar product.

Not good!

Edited November 29, 2011 by kdrive

[Rick Brewster]

Now that's customer service

Seems like the author really just has no idea what's going on with memory management, and is inventing myths as he goes.

http://www.vueminder...it=Memory#p2561

Windows does a lot of mysterious things when deciding how much memory to provide to a .NET program. Maybe Windows is being aggressive with providing more memory after a program is first installed/updated, since it doesn't know how much memory the program typically needs, and then gets smarter about allocating memory as time goes on. That's my wild guess...

I was half expecting the next sentence to be something about turtles going all the way down ...

Hopefully he'll figure it out eventually. All the best and stuff.

[Rick Brewster]

Looks like the other thread about memory problems has also been deleted.

[david.atwell]

That's like denying newsmedia access to the eviction of Occupy protestors. Okay, it's nothing like that (at least nowhere near as serious).

And it's one of the many reasons we don't delete threads here. Lock yes, delete no.