Debate: Biometric ID cards

[vista?]

Yes, I think everyone should be forced to carry a biometric ID card, or at least have the possibility to. Checking out on an airport should be SO much easier. Just scan your face, and your card, and off you go! I don't know about implants though... I would like a card from these guys: https://www.ironkey.com/ Their thumb drive is hot! And protective. Seeing as no one but the producer can access the data, and an advanced registry code algorithm could be used to lend acces to the cards' contents for tiny amounts of time, No one would be able to change the data.

Well Stephan, you've made one pro of id cards - that is that air travel is a whole lot easier/quicker! But how would you like it when someone stole your identity, Stephan?!

Read my post on page 1 of this thread and you'll know what i mean, for all i know, some fraudsters could have details of my parents (i'm 11) as well as half the uk population regarding the stolen data from HMRC!

[Simon Brown]

I mean that the chip would recognise the DNA of the person it's in & de-activate itself if the DNA of the person changed...

The chip could only detect the DNA directly around it - so I could imagine a sick way they could get around the system.

If the chip takes a DNA sample for the person it's in when it's entered then there's no problem with that.

They could simply implant the chip into themselves with the surrounding flesh.

[MattBlackLamb]

After that I mentioned a person's heart rate or pulse, if the chip registers no pulse it deactivates itself.

Also, bodies sometimes have a bad reaction to foreign tissue, people who have organ transplants sometimes have a very rough few weeks after as the body gets used to the new organ. I believe that there are a few cases where the body hasn't accepted the new organ & the person has died, this would be an issue with your idea, you'd have to be pretty sure that the persons flesh would be accepted into your body very quickly, as they would be more than likely to go out & tell people like the police that they'd had their chip removed.

Stephan, the demo on their site made me laugh I'm not paranoid enough to use one of those...

[Bobofthedead]

The thing is, what are ID cards supposed to stop? If someone wants to get into a train or bus with a backpack full of explosives and blow themselves to kingdom come, what is a card going to do to stop them? They're going to kill themselves and others anyway, so the "terrorist threat" argument is out of the window. If it's for identification of criminals, then that could be viewed as fascist, and against civil liberties (don't argue that all criminals should have no basic human rights) due to them being usable as what are essentially informal control orders and trackers. That's that use gone.

The only use I can see for them is if a government decides to go the whole hog and become a fascist Orwellian police state. Then they'll work...

I wouldn't trust the present government with my tax money, let alone my identity anyway...

[vista?]

The thing is, what are ID cards supposed to stop? If someone wants to get into a train or bus with a backpack full of explosives and blow themselves to kingdom come, what is a card going to do to stop them? They're going to kill themselves and others anyway, so the "terrorist threat" argument is out of the window. If it's for identification of criminals, then that could be viewed as fascist, and against civil liberties (don't argue that all criminals should have no basic human rights) due to them being usable as what are essentially informal control orders and trackers. That's that use gone.

The only use I can see for them is if a government decides to go the whole hog and become a fascist Orwellian police state. Then they'll work...

I wouldn't trust the present government with my tax money, let alone my identity anyway...

Gordon Brown huh. . . He'll be remembered as the PM who started the "Great Data Loss Era" in my head. Plus, you're right, they hardly stop terrorism.

[Simon Brown]

I'm not paranoid enough to use one of those...

I can think of several used - for a start it should be used to store government data to prevent fraud like people are worrying about with the child benifit. Or the photoshop source code!

[Bobofthedead]

Oy Gevalt... Don't even get me started on Brown. Worse than Blair. 'Nuff said. At least Blair had the guts to show his face in public. Brown doesn't even have the guts to do that; he gets a lackey to announce what his Cabinet have decided to mess about with. On the subject of some of his reforms, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. In addition to that, the moron sold his own powers to the EU, and didn't even go there for the official cheque (whoops, of course I meant treaty) signing... Grow some guts man.

[Stephan]

The thing is, what are ID cards supposed to stop? If someone wants to get into a train or bus with a backpack full of explosives and blow themselves to kingdom come, what is a card going to do to stop them?

I suspect having Bus/train Hubs instead of just bus stops. Show card, scan finger/head/whatever unique (and identifiable) body part, and tada, you're through. If you'd want to steal my identity, you'd have to steal my head, or completely rebuild yours to fit mine exactly, and (optionally) DNA samples, (for blood tests when your head just doesn't fit into the profile on my über safe ID) fingerprints, and have exactly the same deficiencies as me. It'd be easier if you WERE me, but you can't, because i'm me.

Also, all samples shouldn't go to the government, just name and such. Then, when you receive your ID, put in the samples (fingerprint, etc.) And if you're getting scanned (airport, train etc.) highly encrypted data is compared to data that is first scanned, and then encrypted. If these correspond, you're through.

[Yata]

Do you realize how outrageous that sounded?

[Stephan]

Do you realize how outrageous that sounded?

No, explain.

[Yata]

Do you realize how outrageous that sounded?

No, explain.

Each one of those chips would not only cost hundreds of dollars, but would have to be painstakingly made using the most advanced of technologies. Something as such would never happen.

[Stephan]

Wrong. Australia already partially employs measurements like these on airports. Scan passport, scan face, travel.

[Sozo]

But that's different than having a chip in your head. And what about accidents? You go up for a friendly headbut () with your friends, and wham, you're out of hundreds of dollars. Chips are basically just an invasion of privacy. We might as well have barcodes tatooed on our foreheads. And the government, any government, does not have the greatest track record in dealing with our private info.

[Simon Brown]

Barcodes on our foreheads? The mark of the beast!

[Sozo]

Exactly my thought.

[Stephan]

I never said anything about chips in humans. That will have to wait for myself. I might build one myself, to let me open doors and stuff, but nothing electronic from the government is going underneath my skin!

[Andrew D]

I never said anything about chips in humans. That will have to wait for myself. I might build one myself, to let me open doors and stuff, but nothing electronic from the government is going underneath my skin!

It probably already is

[david.atwell]

Allow me to just say:

THX-1138.

Oh, and 1984.

[MattBlackLamb]

Instead of chips or security cards, it should be a unique part of someone's body that we'd use to identify people by.

For example:

You go to an ATM to get some money out & at the moment you put in your card & enter your pin. If all you had to do was scan 10 finger prints or retinal scan or something that way the only way someone is going to get your money is by walking up to you at the machine & putting a knife to your back.

If your identity is encoded in your body then faking identity is impossible without cloning.

[Simon Brown]

Instead of chips or security cards, it should be a unique part of someone's body that we'd use to identify people by.

For example:

You go to an ATM to get some money out & at the moment you put in your card & enter your pin. If all you had to do was scan 10 finger prints or retinal scan or something that way the only way someone is going to get your money is by walking up to you at the machine & putting a knife to your back.

If your identity is encoded in your body then faking identity is impossible without cloning.

Actually, I read in the guardian ages ago that is possible to fake a fingerprint reader easily involving getting a person to touch something, getting the fingerprint from that - and some gelatine (one can eat the evidence if got caught).

Also, I don't believe that fingerprints are unique and just highly random to such a huge degree that we have never noticed. If they are unique I wouldn't understand how that could be possible when people can't communicate remotly.

[MattBlackLamb]

For two people in the world to have all 10 identical finger prints is highly unlikely, if you also need another security measure too (retinal scanning for example) then the system is foolproof.

[Simon Brown]

For two people in the world to have all 10 identical finger prints is highly unlikely, if you also need another security measure too (retinal scanning for example) then the system is foolproof.

I'm sure there's a way to fake eyescan too. Hide a high def camera where the suspect is going to be looking and then produce contact lenses with that eyescan printed on.

[pyrochild]

...the system is foolproof.

Nothing is fool-proof. There are ways around anything and everything. The only limiting factor is the practicality of actually fooling the system...

[MiguelPereira]

...the system is foolproof.

Nothing is fool-proof. There are ways around anything and everything. The only limiting factor is the practicality of actually fooling the system...

Which would be a pretty wicked thing to do...

[Simon Brown]

...the system is foolproof.

Nothing is fool-proof. There are ways around anything and everything. The only limiting factor is the practicality of actually fooling the system...

Which would be a pretty wicked thing to do...

Identity fraudsters do that all the time - who is saying they won't attempt to get past this?