Tuturial snobbery will hurt Paint.net

[sharpy]

I'm fairly new to paint.net and my original artistic capabilities are limited. But the thing that almost wants me to quit using this brilliant programme is the snobbery in the tuturial section. OK some people post poor tutorials does'nt mean you have to lamblast them, just dont post any reply at all and that 'Tut' will wither and die real fast, any child psychologist can tell you ignoring someone who's after attention has a profound impact, we all have to start somewhere and that includes writing 'Tuts'.

[Andrew D]

I'm fairly new to paint.net and my original artistic capabilities are limited. But the thing that almost wants me to quit using this brilliant programme is the snobbery in the tuturial section. OK some people post poor tutorials does'nt mean you have to lamblast them, just dont post any reply at all and that 'Tut' will wither and die real fast, any child psychologist can tell you ignoring someone who's after attention has a profound impact, we all have to start somewhere and that includes writing 'Tuts'.

Read the last two rules. They can just bump it back up.

I just want generally a way to filter the tutorials section.

[david.atwell]

The fact is that the very name of the concept - "Tutorial" - suggests what it does. It "tutors" people in Paint.NET effects. Now, unless you have extensive experience in Paint.NET or extensive experience with image editing in general, you have no business teaching something.

I liken it to a high school classroom. Let's say you signed up for an art class, and when you got there, the person standing in the front of the room said, "I'll be your teacher today." When you ask him what his qualifications are, he just says, "Oh, I'm actually just taking this class for the first time. I signed up this morning."

Now let's take it back even further and apply it to Andrew D, Ash, myself, and several of the other users here. We've taken the class hundreds of times. We've even taught the class several times. So when one of the students gets up to teach, we have a bit of a problem with that.

BoltBait has said it quite well: Noobs have no business making tutorials. Noobs should be following tutorials. And it's not a dig against them or some vast conspiracy to have all newbies ostracized, it's just the truth. Some people act as if tut writing is some sort of a birthright when, in fact, it isn't. Tuts should be few and far between, and very, very well thought out. That's why most of them should be posted as final images in the Pictorium.

I thought like you did, back when I started. I actually did battle with Ash over it once, much the same as you are with Andrew D. I made very similar points. But as I've stuck around and watched how things go here, I've realized something pretty important: if someone has no interest in listening to criticism, we have no interest in them staying anyway. We don't want people here with such weak skins that they run crying every time someone says their work isn't beautiful. Constructive criticism is very important. And whether you like it or not, Andrew D does give constructive criticism, albeit doused in acid. :-)

Now, I don't think we should flame tut writers until they go away. I think there's definitely room in the forum for our kindness to improve. I think that some people go on for FAR too long, sniping and snarking just to make themselves feel superior. And that needs to stop; if you'll notice, I've made it a point to post a comment to that effect most times an argument begins. We're not here to be mean, we're here to learn and help people learn.

But if you'll stick around for a while, you'll notice that we're not mean people. Crazy Man Dan, BoltBait, Ash, and Rick (our mods) have some pretty high post counts, and they're thought of very highly around here. People don't get that way without being nice.

So just wait and learn, watch and listen. Because you'll never get any better if you're too busy thinking about how mad you are. :-)

[sharpy]

The fact is that the very name of the concept - "Tutorial" - suggests what it does. It "tutors" people in Paint.NET effects. Now, unless you have extensive experience in Paint.NET or extensive experience with image editing in general, you have no business teaching something.

I liken it to a high school classroom. Let's say you signed up for an art class, and when you got there, the person standing in the front of the room said, "I'll be your teacher today." When you ask him what his qualifications are, he just says, "Oh, I'm actually just taking this class for the first time. I signed up this morning."

Now let's take it back even further and apply it to Andrew D, Ash, myself, and several of the other users here. We've taken the class hundreds of times. We've even taught the class several times. So when one of the students gets up to teach, we have a bit of a problem with that.

BoltBait has said it quite well: Noobs have no business making tutorials. Noobs should be following tutorials. And it's not a dig against them or some vast conspiracy to have all newbies ostracized, it's just the truth. Some people act as if tut writing is some sort of a birthright when, in fact, it isn't. Tuts should be few and far between, and very, very well thought out. That's why most of them should be posted as final images in the Pictorium.

I thought like you did, back when I started. I actually did battle with Ash over it once, much the same as you are with Andrew D. I made very similar points. But as I've stuck around and watched how things go here, I've realized something pretty important: if someone has no interest in listening to criticism, we have no interest in them staying anyway. We don't want people here with such weak skins that they run crying every time someone says their work isn't beautiful. Constructive criticism is very important. And whether you like it or not, Andrew D does give constructive criticism, albeit doused in acid. :-)

Now, I don't think we should flame tut writers until they go away. I think there's definitely room in the forum for our kindness to improve. I think that some people go on for FAR too long, sniping and snarking just to make themselves feel superior. And that needs to stop; if you'll notice, I've made it a point to post a comment to that effect most times an argument begins. We're not here to be mean, we're here to learn and help people learn.

But if you'll stick around for a while, you'll notice that we're not mean people. Crazy Man Dan, BoltBait, Ash, and Rick (our mods) have some pretty high post counts, and they're thought of very highly around here. People don't get that way without being nice.

So just wait and learn, watch and listen. Because you'll never get any better if you're too busy thinking about how mad you are. :-)

Ahem, you seem to think I'm responding to a 'Tut' I posted nothing is further from the truth I have no axe to grind or feel the slightest compuntion to post a 'Tut' yet I'm still exploring Paint.NET.

But I trawl the 'Tuts, section for tip trick and even inspriation. The snobbery that has sprung up of late is giong to stifle people from postig ANYthing unles its a million pictures long and the end result is a Da Vinci.

Yes I notice your considered response to try and mitigate the sniping...Did'nt work very well.

As to bumping I've not seen much evidence of someone bumping a duff 'Tut'

[Ash]

Good tut does NOT have to be a million pictures long and the end result is a Da Vinci.

For anyone who wants to make tuts. Read this quote first:

For the users who want to critique a Tuturial. Quote me, and don't doused in acid as David put it.

All I have to say is:

Learn more before trying teach.

Play around with PDN more, It has a lot of power and can do much much more.

Then start posting your work in The Pictorium!

If and when enough users like your work, I'm sure many will ask you for tutorials.

For Noobs who want to post tuts. Read my above quote, then read this next one.

For the users who want to critique a Noob Tuturial. Quote me and/or BoltBait, and don't doused in acid as David put it.

noob's should be following tutorials, not writing them.

This issue have been talked about over and over again.

If you don't like a tut, stop making replies, stop fighting. Or you just gonna keep that on the top of the list.

No more fighting in the tutorials section. Or, hhmmm...ehh. I'm gonna have to turn this car around!! yeah, thats right! :!:

And please read this again. For both sides!

9) Be courteous to others. Constructive criticism is generally welcome and encouraged. Starting fights and being rude is not. However, if your tutorial is really lame, don't be offended when we say as much (By the way, the moderators will generally and almost always follow this rule, but are not required to if circumstance warrants it -- which is at their own discretion.)

[david.atwell]

Aaaash! Myrddin's touching me!!

[Myrddin]

Na-ah, he started it!

[Ash]

NO Ice cream for the both of you!

And, dum dum dum....No PDN for 2 weeks! :shock:

[Blooper]

More for me!

[Bob]

Andrew.

If you're going to answer to each somewhat-easy tutorial as much as you do now (well, this week especially or so), you'll be very very tired and disgusted in a week or so.

The n00bish tutz problem arise every 2 months or so, next people got work to do, life to live, and so on.

Last time it was Dan ranting about it, now it's you in particular, next time it would be me...

Those problems appear in every community, that's nothing specific.

Just let it be.

[Blooper]

Andrew.

If you're going to answer to each somewhat-easy tutorial as much as you do now (well, this week especially or so), you'll be very very tired and disgusted in a week or so.

The n00bish tutz problem arise every 2 months or so, next people got work to do, life to live, and so on.

Last time it was Dan ranting about it, now it's you in particular, next time it would be me...

Those problems appear in every community, that's nothing specific.

Just let it be.

I'll be sure to quote that when it'll be your turn...

[oma]

well I'm not a noob but I certainly know how to use this program. I have loads of posts , many pictures in the pictorium. But I know I'm a lousy Tut writer. But I also know I'm kind to newbies, there are ways to say wait awhile before you write a tut, and ways to dash young souls.

I for one am frankly fed up with the bickering going on. If you all are mature enough to be on a forum then behave so.

"The End of it Please"

[david.atwell]

"The End of it Please"

If only it would work. I agree.

[unreconstructed1]

I am new to this forum and to paint.net, so I may even have no business getting involved in this , but I would like to say this. I have seen some of the work done here by some of the more veteran mambers, and I am amazed at how good they are. a couple of weeks ago, I honestly didn't realize what the "magic wand" feature did. I understand that I don't know nearly as much as some of the other guys, and I really can't show anybody here anything that they dont know. therefore, I'll no be creating any tuts. everyone needs to realize their limitations in something. If you don't really know the potential of a subject, why do you feel that you are qualified to instruct anyone else on it's use? On the other hand , there are some members who insist on making rather snappy remarks about someones non-tutorials, these people should realize that these people making these tuts are probably just trying to find acceptance on this forum, and they feel that their attempts at a tutorial is the only way to gain that acceptance.

[TheVoid]

I agree with you.

[Ash]

I am new to this forum and to paint.net, so I may even have no business getting involved in this , but I would like to say this. I have seen some of the work done here by some of the more veteran mambers, and I am amazed at how good they are. a couple of weeks ago, I honestly didn't realize what the "magic wand" feature did. I understand that I don't know nearly as much as some of the other guys, and I really can't show anybody here anything that they dont know. therefore, I'll no be creating any tuts. everyone needs to realize their limitations in something. If you don't really know the potential of a subject, why do you feel that you are qualified to instruct anyone else on it's use? On the other hand , there are some members who insist on making rather snappy remarks about someones non-tutorials, these people should realize that these people making these tuts are probably just trying to find acceptance on this forum, and they feel that their attempts at a tutorial is the only way to gain that acceptance.

Good points

It's just like playing an RPG, if you are not at that level yet, don't go in to fight the boss.

You can beat the boss (gain acceptance, as you've put it in much better words) only by working hard and learning more skills. IMO

[david.atwell]

That's an excellent point! Both of you, I agree completely. Good analogy. Mad props. :-)

[Ash]

STOP replying to Tuts that you think are not good.

It will just keep it on top of the list.

Just let it be, and it will slowly goto the bottom.

[barkbark00]

Personally, I think that humiliation is the best remedy. If we can make these people cry that just might stop posting lame tutorials.

[sharpy]

Hope that was sarcasm BarkBark. BTW you know your sig looks like a bowtie for a retro android.

[barkbark00]

Hope that was sarcasm BarkBark.

No, I was like 90% serious.

BTW you know your sig looks like a bowtie for a retro android.

Yeah, my signature is due for a redux.

[taboo]

I happen to enjoy a constructive argument from time to time, so I think I'll jump in on the side of Newbie Tutorials.

There is a wealth of theory, research and evidence to suggest that students learn best by actively participating in the "authoritative" function of a subject. These days, they call it "Assuming the University." When a student enters a classroom, he/she is asked to assume the authority of knowledge and speak with the voice of the institution.

Does anybody expect the student to fluently speak the language of authority from the get-go? Of course not. And, in fact, after 50 years of a tenured professorship, the individual still will not have that language fully mastered, because, of course, mastery is only a concept and cannot ever be obtained.

Instead, when the student assumes the authority, he/she is forced to speak with a language more complex than anything he/she could have imagined. The learning curve is quite impressive.

More importantly, the role of professor begins to shift from teacher to facilitator and, eventually, hopefully, if the subject is inclusive and therefore frequently refreshed, the facilitator shifts again back into the role of student.

Well, it's just a theory . . . :idea:

[david.atwell]

Taboo, that's a phenomenal and fantastic idea. But it only works when the student is willing to learn and is of the emotional maturity to be able to assume such responsibility. Many of the tutorial authors in question show evidence of neither of these.

[Ash]

he/she is forced to speak with a language more complex than anything he/she could have imagined. The learning curve is quite impressive.

That's only true when the student is given a subject or objective. But many tut in the forum just "do what ever they want" and not "forced to speak with a language more complex than anything he/she could have imagined", As you've put it.

Hmm...let's see. If we apply this case to the forum would be like:

Ash: Teach how to make my saber tooth tiger, do it, do it now! Your grades depends on it!

Noob: .....uh...ok :shock: , Lalala, whatever...I'll make something with radial blur + Polar Inversion. Done!

PDN users 1: This suck.

Noob: This is my 1st tut and I'm a noob and only 13, so don't yell at me.

PDN user 2: yeah don't hate

PDN user 3: I agree with user 1....

And.... round and round we go, when will it stop? Nobody knows... :PolarInversion: :ZoomBlur: :PolarInversion: :ZoomBlur:

All joking aside, Noob does NOT = bad tuts.

So, it's a cool idea in some cases, but might not work here. :?

Personally, I think that humiliation is the best remedy. If we can make these people cry that just might stop posting lame tutorials.

And yet we see many keep poping out all over the places :?: :? :?:

[Panhead]

i think to many new people want to make a tut, and make something, to make them think they are better then they really are, i looked around for a while on this forum before i even got a screen name, i saw how many people were doing horrible tuts

a little off topic, but what does IMO mean