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korteck

Layer Rotation Problem

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I used the rotate feature to twist the text of my sig below. (the gold name Korteck) I noticed that the two end letters "K" extended outside the canvas borders as the word pivoted. I thought, no problem, I'll just pivot the word, take notice of the distance, and then I'll extend the canvas. Believe it or not, that didn't work.

I started over and gave myself a bigger canvas this time. I pivoted the word again, extending the letters K to their farthest distance. Then I took notice of the actual pixels that I wanted cropped, and cropped it. To my great surprise, the new cropped canvass was still short by about ten pixels on each side.

Out of frustration, I started all over yet again. This time I pivoted the word and drew red guide lines exactly where I wanted to crop it. I gave myself twenty pixels on each side of the word.

After I cropped it, I saw that my red lines were in place where they should be, but the letters K still over extended the borders. They went right past my red guide lines! :shock:

I finally realized that the grid was working perfectly fine and the intended pixels had been cut precisely.

It has something to do with the rotation feature. Trust me. Perform your own test. You can't trust an exact measurement when using the rotation feature. Somehow the image gets distorted between taking your measurement and cropping the image.

I finally seceded by giving myself plenty of room on each side and hoping for the best.

Does anyone have an explanation for this? Trust me, it was not error on my part. Thanks for reading.

In case I change my sig latter on, I'll leave an extra copy of it here for future reference.

KORTECKGOLDGIFSIG455x100.gif

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Thanks Rick.

OK, when I first tried to rotate my name, (KORTECK, see my current sig) the two "K's" overextended the borders like in examples 1 & 2.

example 1

1.png

example 2

2.png

So I increased the size of the canvas, but now the canvas was too big.

I now had to crop the canvas a bit smaller.

I zoomed to 1200 and rotated the word Korteck again in both directions, first left and then right. I took notice of the exact pixels on both ends of the canvas that I wanted to crop. I did this with the word fully rotated and extended, one side at a time. I kept about ten pixels on each end, as in example 3.

example 3

3.png

Of course, I had to undo the rotate/zoom feature and straighten out the image before I could crop it.

After I cropped the image, the ten pixels on each end that I thought I had kept, were gone, and the letters K still overextended the border when rotated.

I thought I had just made some stupid mistake, so the next time I repeated my initial steps. I zoomed in close and decided exactly where I wanted to crop the image. First fully extended left, then fully extended right.

Then to make sure, I gave myself a few more pixels on each end of the word (while the word is rotated and fully extended) and drew two red guide lines. I wanted to see if my red guide lines would disappear or not. I actually cut outside of my red guide lines just to be safe

See example 4.

example 4

4.png

After I cropped and rotated the image this time, I couldn't believe it, but there were my two red lines with the letters K going right past them, as in example 5.

example 5

5.png

I finally just measured the image flat (not rotated) and gave an equal amount of distance on each end as in example 6. I got pretty lucky.

example 6

6.png

Something happened to the image between the time it was rotated and cropped. I was hoping you would have an simple explanation.

The grid works perfectly for flat images, but I don't trust measurements taken while an image is twisted.

I hope this makes a little sense.

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No, think about it -

take an image of a flat logo, and turn it 45 degrees;

compare that to taking an image of a logo turned 45 degrees and turning it 45 degrees in the other direction

There is a difference...I hope I explained it clearly enough.

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Illnab1024, thanks for taking the time to help me figure this out, but I think you're assuming that I measured both sides of the image while it was only in one direction.

I did not do it that way. I only measured the left side of the image while it was fully extended left, and I measured the right side only when it was turned and fully extended right.

Of course the measurements would be different if both sides of the image where measured while in only one direction.

The center of the logo remains stationary, but the outer edges increase in size. That's why I measured both sides at their fully extended points, and cropped off the excess. After the crop, I would expect the edges of the images to go no further than they did before. At the point where I cut off the excess.

Take a look at my sig. Imagine that you draw two red lines at the furthest points that the word extends. Imagine that you cut off the excess of the black border at those lines. Now, after you've done this, why would the letters of the word extend out past those red lines? It makes no sense to me.

I think the image is resizing a little during the cropping process, because of the rotation factor. That's the only explanation I can think of.

If anyone's interested, here's what you should do.

Rotate a word until it's fully extended to the left side. Count over exactly ten pixels (only the left side) and write the precise measurement down. Now do the same with the other side of the word, in the opposite direction.

Now straighten out the word and crop it to the exact measurements you just took.

Now with the new cropped image, rotate it the same amount as before, until it's fully extended again, and your ten pixels won't be there. They should be there, but they wont be.

Those ten pixels would be there if you hadn't first rotated the image to get you measurements. It has something specifically to do with rotation.

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I find something more about this problem.

I used this picture in different layers:

korteck0.png

And I rotate each layer with different angle to see the red dot.

korteck.png

Conclusion : the Red dot doesn't describe an ellipse as we could expect. It describe like a flat 8. That's the point.

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I can't follow your description at all. You have to provide some screenshots or something.

Is it possible to adapt the rotation to have only one circle instead some kind of flat 8 (see my previous post) or could you explain why is the rotation like this?

To Korteck : I suggest you to change the title to smething like : Layer rotation problem

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Why would you expect it to draw an ellipse? I'm not sure what you're basing your expectations on, but it seems arbitrary.

I assume the rotation is "normal". So we could simulate a revolution of the image.

From top view a point of the describe a circle.

Same point from angled view will describe an ellipse.

To me it is the normal rule for perpective drawing.

Actually with PDN the rotation applies also a reduction and THIS is the tricky part.

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I'd have to say a flattened 8 would make more sense to me in this image. As one side moves foward, prospective moves it lower, and visa versa when moving backward. Thus, creating an 8 figure. 1 dot would create an ellipse, but since you have 2 it creates 2 seperate ellipses, which forms an 8.

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I'd have to say a flattened 8 would make more sense to me in this image. As one side moves foward, prospective moves it lower, and visa versa when moving backward. Thus, creating an 8 figure. 1 dot would create an ellipse, but since you have 2 it creates 2 seperate ellipses, which forms an 8.

When you draw a circle you place the center and at the desired raduis there is a dot making a revolution (from 0 to 360 degres). This dot will never pass through the center BECAUSE the raduis is constant in a circle.

Rotation of a picture (to me) should be the same a this dot for all pixels of the picture and never pass through the center (except if raduis =0)...

Example from paint.net:

rotate.png

Example from Anim8tor:

rotate1.png

Example from Anim8tor (volume) :

rotate2.png

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I don't know... both look like perfectly logical outcomes to me.

I think the 8 is an ellipse, but the way its tilted makes it look otherwise... idk lemme go experiment, 1 min...

edit:

Ok, here's what I've concluded.

Without a twist you do get an ellipse

[image removed cause it is no longer needed and I don't feel like hosting it still.]

With twists I got something different, not quite an 8 but sort of... if it kept going and was further apart maybe. Theres 2 distinc ellipses in each below.

[image removed cause it is no longer needed and I don't feel like hosting it still.] [image removed cause it is no longer needed and I don't feel like hosting it still.]

So, I would say it doesn't pass the center, only appears in front of it. Since PDN is 2d, it seems to be in the center. That's my guess.

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korteck, I believe you are trying to create a spinning effect with the text by repeatedly rotating it. This isn't quite the right approach for doing this effect in Paint.NET.

When Rotate/Zoom is performed on an image, it make the image look like it's been tilted/sized/rotated. The problem is that if you repeat Rotate/Zoom, it's not the case that you're rotating the flat text "KortecK". You're rotating a picture of the word, which is already rotated.

If you want show text rotating as it does in your sig, you need to do this:


  1. [*:9bf73]Draw the text
    [*:9bf73]Tilt the text by 10 degrees
    [*:9bf73]Save the image, then UNDO the Rotate/Zoom.
    [*:9bf73]Tilt the text by 20 degrees
    [*:9bf73]Save the image, then UNDO the Rotate/Zoom.
    [*:9bf73]Tilt the text by 30 degrees
    [*:9bf73]...

Repeatedly rotating the text with Rotate/Zoom is like taking a picture of a picture from an angle, printing that picture, then taking a picture of THAT picture from an angle. A bit of an odd concept, but that's what you're doing with Rotate/Zoom by repeating it. Try the above steps to accomplish what you're going for.

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I find something more about this problem.

I used this picture in different layers:

korteck0.png

And I rotate each layer with different angle to see the red dot.

korteck.png

Conclusion : the Red dot doesn't describe an ellipse as we could expect. It describe like a flat 8. That's the point.

I see the issue you're talking about now... you're right, the red dots should form an ellipse. I'll investigate this.

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If you want show text rotating as it does in your sig, you need to do this:


  1. [*:5715d]Draw the text
    [*:5715d]Tilt the text by 10 degrees
    [*:5715d]Save the image, then UNDO the Rotate/Zoom.
    [*:5715d]Tilt the text by 20 degrees
    [*:5715d]Save the image, then UNDO the Rotate/Zoom.
    [*:5715d]Tilt the text by 30 degrees
    [*:5715d]...

...what's the way I did my example... Sorry doesn't work !

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It should have worked MadJik. That's how I did mine.

You're correct Tom. That's exactly how I did it. I think I used increments of 5 degrees between each save. I also had to undo after each save, just like you said. Because if I didn't undo, the image would "jump ahead" because the image would not be starting off where I last saved it.

The problem I had was that the image seemed to grow by about 20 pixels after I cropped it to size.

I wish someone would repeat my steps and make a sig similar to mine.

First, write down the exact pixel units of your canvas, and then write down the exact measurement of your "word."

Do the math. Know your measurements precisely.

Rotate the word until it's fully extended to the left side. I think mine was 28 degrees fully extended. Zoom in so you can see the exact pixels your counting.

Now this is important: Count over exactly ten pixels from the left end of the word and write the precise measurement down.

Now, rotate the word to the right side and do the exact same thing with the other side of the word, in the opposite direction.

Now straighten out the word and crop it to the exact measurements you just took.

Okay, now take the newly cropped image and rotate it to the same degree as before, until it's fully extended again.

Here's where you'll see the problem.

Look for those 10 pixels you left on each side of the word. They will have disappeared and the ends of the word will extend out past the border that you just cropped.

This phenomenon doesn't happen when you crop a flat image, but if the image was skewed when you took your measurements, the measurements will be off. I tried it a dozen times, and that's just the way it is.

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