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welshblue

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Firstly, this isn't to pick fights ... more curiosity as to why sometimes, there's double standards in posts/ threads on these forums

Goonfella and BarbieQ' have their posts editted when replying to this:

What is with this attitude on this forum of "OMG U READ SO Y U NO REPLY?!?!?@@!!@#$&*%^% U HAET ME IM LEEVING!!11!"

It is selfish, obnoxious and childish.

In the case of the galleries, some people just like looking. When you're at an art gallery (where the artist is present) do you immediately hunt down the artist and tell him your thoughts on every single piece as you view it? No, you probably just look, unless you feel you have something valuable to say.

In this case, nobody has a 3DS. Nobody.

In both cases, you need to remember that many of these views are coming from search engine crawlers or guests to the forum without accounts.

Isn't the way this is put: "OMG U READ SO Y U NO REPLY?!?!?@@!!@#$&*%^% U HAET ME IM LEEVING!!11!" ... just a teensy bit childish and obnoxious ?

Then they're called 'Rude' when they put their views across in reply ... yet it was OK to fan the flames with the quoted post ?

I just don't get it. I really don't

I was brought up to think respect cuts both ways, yet that really doesn't seem the case on here.

I've known Goon' and BarbieQ' a long time, and as I was part of the conversation debating the pros and cons of staying on this forum ... I'll admit to being obnoxious at times; whereas they're not. (In fact they're two of the nicest people I've met in 10 years of being online) Nor are any of us childish or selfish.

In fact we're very mature and considerate towards others.

We were just wondering if there's any point posting here.

Maybe I'm missing the point of showcasing stuff made in Paint.net on a Paint.net forum ...

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Well firstly Welshy - thank you so much for your kind words, the feeling is mutual I`m sure - even if you do support the wrong team! ;)

Secondly I think you are quite right to question the double standards here. The Mods, after all, should be setting an example to the contributors of this forum , not passing comment on what certain individuals decide to do with their gallery or what they think. Delete a post if it has offensive language or unsuitable imagery by all means or deal with people`s concerns in a sensible manner . That is after all what being a Mod is all about. But ,as I mentioned in my deleted post, surely as Mods they should be looking into why the forum has become like it is. Politeness , I think , has a big part to play in this - or lack of it.

Too many times I have seen a perfectly reasonable question get a blunt , unhelpful answer . It puts you off registering here. It did me , for a long time. In the end I had to sign up because I needed help with a plug in. Up to that point I had frequently visited the forum and been disappointed at how unfriendly it seemed. That is why I signed up at Fans long before.

I would love to here what the Mods think on these matters as long as it`s sensibly written and not a string of mouthing off capital letters - which breaks their own rules for this forum for starters. I appreciate that being a Mod can`t be easy and must take up a considerable amount of time. But their own job would be made so much easier if they showed a bit more respect towards people. This conversation would probably not be taking place if that were the case, and everyone would be much happier.

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I don't really have time to get into this at the moment, but here are Goonfella's and barbieq's posts that I removed from the 3DS thread:

I assume that last comment was referring to the conversation in my gallery. I also mentioned that it had become a chore to have to sort through endless URL`s to find where to put images so it was a number of things that made me decide to close it. This forum has become less and less enjoyable to visit . I only really come here to keep up with updates now anyway so a big gallery is no longer important to me. You should be looking to see why this place has gone downhill compared to how it used to be - and I`m not the only one who thinks this either.

In my opinion the mods are rude and unhelpful . Your here to moderate anyway - not judge on people . My gallery will now definitely be closed whereas before I was going to expand it a bit more. So thanks very much - Gimp here I come.

Pyro, if I visited a gallery & the artist was present, which I have, there is no way in the world that I would walk by & not acknowledge his/her efforts, whether I like the works or not. That would simply be unacceptably rude of me.

If another artist took the time to explain to me how to make an image better or use a better process, I would thank them. I would also be checking out their work to see how they themselves do things & I would most definitely leave a comment. These ones are often the same ones who want feedback from others. How's that gonna work?!

Your comments to Matt101840 were harsh.

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This forum drama is ridiculous. It is clearly more polite than the rest of the internet, and I really don't care what anyone here does with their galleries...

I'm as uninvolved as it gets, though (well not anymore now, ha). There's no point in staying on this forum as there is none in leaving it.

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@ Frontcannon ... I respect your opinion and you're entitled to it (and you play some pretty cool music) but to call peoples concerns ridiculous, isn't going to help this situation very much

If you're not fussed either way ... ridiculous ... is slightly strong because it implies that's what the people who care are

@ Goon' ... which is the right team ? Half the players in the Premiership are over-paid, under-talented prima donnas IMHumbleO

Edited by welshblue

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Ridiculous DOES sound a bit derogative, maybe fruitless is a better word.

Finally some activity and all people do is argue.. speaks volumes, doesn't it?

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'fruitless' is good. As in ... not a lot will change. Regardless

Damn. My sig was phrophetic. Shame I can't do the same for lottery numbers :D

Speaks volumes ? As in the world is totally messed up ?

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I write long replies - that's what I do - so get ready for a book.

Firstly, I'll respond directly to the messages in this thread:

Isn't the way this is put: "OMG U READ SO Y U NO REPLY?!?!?@@!!@#$&*%^% U HAET ME IM LEEVING!!11!" ... just a teensy bit childish and obnoxious ?

Yes. It was.

Then they're called 'Rude' when they put their views across in reply ...

No. The replies themselves were not what was being condemned as rude, but the act of jacking the thread. As I understand it, pyro's response addressed a sentiment that was posted in the thread as seen as an extension of a systemic attitude that has been cropping up rencetly. His post addressed the sentiment, but that thread was not the proper place to hold that discussion at length. As you can see, pyro has reposted those replies in this thread. It is not our intention to stifle your concerns, we merely wish those concerns to be properly organized. ;)

The Mods, after all, should be setting an example to the contributors of this forum , not passing comment on what certain individuals decide to do with their gallery or what they think. Delete a post if it has offensive language or unsuitable imagery by all means or deal with people`s concerns in a sensible manner . That is after all what being a Mod is all about.

In our official capacity, yes, mods lock threads, edit out naughty bits, and generally keep order. However, we are not simply protocol-keeping robots. In our capacity as members, we have just as much right as any other member to express our opinion. Likewise, you as a member have every right to disregard those opinions.

Too many times I have seen a perfectly reasonable question get a blunt , unhelpful answer .

The only questions I've seen shot down in such a manner were questions that didn't need to be asked - feature requests that were already in the Popular Feature Requests thread, questions whose answers are the first result on searchpaint.net, that sort of thing. Do not confuse terseness with rudeness - Rick posts a simple "No" all the time, because that's all information that he has available in those cases.

I would love to here what the Mods think on these matters as long as it`s sensibly written and not a string of mouthing off capital letters - which breaks their own rules for this forum for starters.

I think it's eminently clear that pyro jokingly used ALLCAPS as an expression of exasperated hyperbole. It may have been in poor taste, but it did not break any rules.

Now, in regards to the greater problem surrounding this issue. Let it be clear that I speak only for myself, so if you take issue with this, your issue is with me alone. I'm not able to be around as much as I used to be, so I didn't witness the flashpoint of whatever is going on here as it happened, but since you brought it up in your original post, Goonfella, I have gone back and read at least your Pictorium gallery thread so as to acquire a bit of context.

The simple fact is, the reason this forum exists is to field Paint.NET questions, requests, and troubleshooting issues, and to index Paint.NET resources like plugins, tutorials, and localization packs. The fact that we have a community at all is a happy by-product of bringing Paint.NET users together. We value every one of our members: it's your work - ideas, suggestions, answers, tutorials, plugins - that have made Paint.NET what it is today. What I cannot stand, however, is the drama.

I've seen complaints about the lack of comments and critique before, and I believe it's a misunderstanding of the medium. The Pictorium community is fairly insular - new users don't come here to be art critics, they come here to ask how to install plugins for the umpteenth time, or ask how to get their Colors window back without bothering to search. A few users may stick around, and some of those may even create galleries of their own and contribute to that section of the forum, but they are the vast minority. Out of the 20,000+ registered members we have, only a couple hundred are actually currently active, even fewer are active in that section, and even fewer still come back to comment on other people's work, so you're naturally going to see the same faces and hear the same praise.

Quite simply, a support forum is not and will never be the ideal place to showcase artwork and ask for criticism. We discussed this at length when talks of a Pictorium sub-forum started, but the users wanted a place to show their work on the forum, so we put in the work to make it happen. There was a time when the "Pictorium" was a single running thread that everyone dumped their work into. With the Pictorium sub-forum, you get your own thread all to yourself, but it's still just a forum thread - if it's inactive, it moves down the list as new threads are posted. Interested people can use the "Watch this topic" feature to be notified of replies to the thread in general, but that is the best we can offer.

In regards to your concerns regarding politeness, quite frankly I disagree. There are aberrations, of course, but on average, this is the single most universally approachable online community I've seen. Pyro's response in this case may have been an overreaction, but I dare say I get what his frustration is. I cannot speak for him, but I see it myself, and he does a lot more around here than I do. We've had this kind of "I'm leaving! Alright, maybe I'll stay. URGH I'M LEAVING!" drama before, and every time it's just a wearisome. It's not that we want you to go, and it's not that we don't like you, it's just that there's not much we can do about it.

This is the official support forum, and you will always be welcome, but it's not the only Paint.NET-centric community out there. If you don't care for the atmosphere, we encourage you to find a community that fits your style. Our job is to answer usage questions and catalog troubleshooting problems. We appreciate your desire to showcase your work, and we do everything we can to support it, but if you're not getting the response you need, then you may need to find another outlet that can support the level of interaction you require.

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Welshy, thank you for your kind words & the feeling is mutual, as Goonie said.

Yes, it was wrong of us to hijack the thread. I must admit that I was a bit confused about where I should be responding with that one. Starting a new thread should have been done but I am not that confident in doing that with quotes etc. Thank goodness Welshy has done that & pyro has put the posts here now.

I've noticed that people think this forum is a democracy & I do remember reading a post somewhere here that it is not (fairly certain that it was by a mod in response to a post). That is fair enough. Even the study board at the university that I attended was not. Freedom of speech is much used & abused.

Thanks mods for not locking this thread. It is really good to be able to clear the air.

CMD, I like long replies when they are well thought out as yours is. It has gone a long way to explaining what this forum is (or should be) all about & is long overdue.

Blanket statements that the mods are unfriendly is just not true. EER is a real sweetie, always (or nearly always) friendly & helpful. With some posters I am sure mods just want to scream, "How thick are you? Read the rules, esp. the one about thread titles!" I might add here that the search function does not always perform very well for me. Possibly error between the chair & the keyboard. Sometimes Rick's & pyro's comments are very blunt & I personally perceive them as rude & unkind or harsh (as in the case of Matt in the offending thread...the reason that I responded in the first place.) I believe that what we are seeing is a mix of personality & frustration, exacerbated by time constraints & generational differences. I teach adults reading, writing, maths, language & computer skills & as such I try to be as upbuilding as possible, looking for areas to praise. It is partly professional training & partly personality & generation. We are not all like that & none of us is perfect.

Keeping in mind that this forum is for support for the program & an access point for plugins & tutes, I can much better understand the responses from the mods now & the lack of critique/comments in the personal galleries. This leads to to think that when older ones (in terms of time here) offer advice & we don't get any thanks or even a response, the posters take it as a given, as in that is what we are here for. Nope, we just volunteer our services for free. Guess that extends to people like pyro, BoltBait & others who take the time to write wonderful plugins but rarely get thanked. Occasionally they get slammed too because a plugin does not do enough that the user thinks it should. Comments like, "How hard could it be to add this or that?!" Then when I see responses like, "OK, you write it then if it is so easy."

All too often when you give something for free, people will take it for granted. I see that attitude here at times & I am just as guilty. We tend to forget that we all give of our time & efforts freely to help others. In the early days of my being here, I too did not often thank people for writing the tutes & plugins. Not because I didn't want to but because I was not sure if I was permitted to post that in the thread. I read the rules a few times! It really put the wind up me...or the fear of God (take your pick here). Now I post with more confidence even if I occasionally get a slap on the wrist. There could be many more people who look, use plugins but feel as I did.

If something isn't right, then change it is my attitude & I have been trying but there have been times too when I feel like it is all too hard. I will continue to encourage new ones & give good c&c to all where possible. And I'll probably continue to get smacked on the wrist. My gallery stays put so that others can be inspired & encouraged & as a thanks to the program & plugin writers.

So in a nutshell, if you want to showcase your work & get c&c, friendly advice & tips go to the Fans forum.

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Firstly thanks to Goonfella (kind words about my 'Highlight' plug in - and very capable artwork - congrats on the eclipse win too!), and BarbieQ (similarly for clever art deco masterpieces and replying and encouraging newbies, when no one else does).

I love all this banter - makes the forum worth visiting, (if no new plug-ins or tutorials!).

At the risk of an early red card, the 'mods' can be a bit grumpy, (but mostly helpful and trying to keep threads in the right place). After all how many times can you explain how to select something?

Now, I don't really understand the 'pictorium/ galleria' - something shows as a new post and you get directed to comments about comments about comments, and eventually find a thumbnail that seems to be about 2 years old?.

I have been visiting the forum for the past 6 months or so (via the program) and so don't sign in unless I need to. Even though I don't post saying thanks for the various galleries and tutorials, it does not mean that they are not appreciated. I just wish it was easier to navigate through them!. I can't be the only one to feel that way.

Perhaps some sort of rolling, top-ten, favourite image chart, may help to showcase the program and its' members' abilities? (big images for top ten and thumbnails for the rest?)

However, I'd rather have an 'airbrush' and 'magnetic select', so I'm happy to let those with the skills concentrate on maintaining / improving the program. And grateful that it exists at all.

Adding fuel to the fire, I think there should be a prize for the most viewed, least replied to post!

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I think there should be a prize for the most viewed, least replied to post!

Winner: Plugin Index!

141 replies (mostly my own) / 619,604 Views = 0.0002275 replies per view.

Thanks mods for not locking this thread. It is really good to be able to clear the air.

A commonly held belief is that we Mods stifle discussion. We don't, as you can see :D.

EER is a real sweetie, always (or nearly always) friendly & helpful.

:D no wait - nearly always?? :lol:

A couple of posters have recently asked where the 'Karma Points' or Respect Button is. I wonder if this forum has this feature?

I for one would like the ability to give someone a rep/point/virtual hug on occasion. Would anyone else like to see this implimented?

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Problem with the Reputation system Pyro is that it is easily abused by people who enjoy pressing the little '-' negative sign on every post in a topic or just a particular user. I've seen it done before on other forums.

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Looks like IP.Board does have a Reputation system built in.

Found this interesting thread on the subject: http://wii2boards.co...t-to-enable-it/

@Sfifer: The point reduction buttons can be disabled.

Pyro

?? An easy mistake to make. We're nearly identical. While it's true that Pyrochild is brighter and slightly taller than me, I like to think I am marginally better looking :lol:

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Winner: Plugin Index!

141 replies (mostly my own) / 619,604 Views = 0.0002275 replies per view.

A commonly held belief is that we Mods stifle discussion. We don't, as you can see :D.

:D no wait - nearly always?? :lol:

A couple of posters have recently asked where the 'Karma Points' or Respect Button is. I wonder if this forum has this feature?

I for one would like the ability to give someone a rep/point/virtual hug on occasion. Would anyone else like to see this implimented?

Case in point: the plugin index represents many hours of work & is very valuable. The number of replies do not represent the value. Guess there is a lesson there for us all.

Nearly always, EER because there are limits to how many times you can say the same thing with a smile to the same person.

As for stifling discussion, there have been times when this was the case. Most likely because we were going around in circles. CMD's posting has resolved a lot of issues & I'd give him a great big hug. You'd get one too. :D

I'd like to see that feature definitely but with the negative disabled. Hugs are good for you. The other thing I'd like to see is a "Like" button similar to facebook or other forums.

This is probably getting a bit off track here.

Pyro=EER :lol: EER is sweeter, pyro writes great plugins without socks :lol:

Should we move the request for the feature?

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Well after reading Crazy Man Dan`s reply it has cleared a lot of things up for me and I would like to say a big thankyou. ;)

I had no idea there was such a small proportion of active users. In that respect then , I agree,then, that you are bound to end up getting replies from a small number of users. The problem with not being a mod, of course, is that you don`t get to find out little titbits like this. And thanks very much for the little history lesson about this forum - very interesting.

I never realised I was hijacking that thread when I replied originally . So apologies for that. I think that`s the first time I`ve hijacked any thread on any forum . Not a bad record.

As far as the rudeness issue is concerned, Barbie you are quite right. A blanket statement like that was out of order. CMD`S response alone is proof of that and once again I would like to apologize. Guess it was written in the heat of the moment.

However I stand by what I said about replies like `No' and little else. Very often a small explanation goes a long way , or a reply like `Sorry I can`t help you there' is much nicer don`t you think? . So it was an unnecessary question - to the mods, or more experienced users yes maybe, but you have to remember sometimes that it might seem like a perfectly reasonable question to the person who asked it.

Anyway after all that, and with things cleared up , as far as I am concerned the matter is closed. Sorry if I upset anyone on the way. Lets just look forward to some happy PDNing and more awesome images from all. ;)

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Question asked and duly answered. Thanks CMD

And it hasn't gone off topic toooo much .... (And no hissy fit from me)

I've always understood that this forum is about development, I just mis-interpretated it wrongly that showing what can be made/ created using the programme could be beneficial to attracting new users.

70% of my posts have been in the Pictorium, be they wowing stuff or offering C & C, sometimes without even a thank you. (Which does irk a lot because I hate lack of good manners.)

The upshot is ... I'll keep producing my work and writing tuts, if people want to comment ... go ahead,

after all I do it for my enjoyment and if it attracts someones eye enough to take a minute or 2 to say it. Cool. If not equally as cool

BTW ... I must add that this wasn't posted to knock the mods, especially Pyro .... it was curiosity.

On it being the friendliest forum, I really would have to beg to differ. And I've been banned from a few !!!

Edited by welshblue

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CMD definitely has a way with words that I don't, and I'll try not to duplicate anything he's already said much better than I can. Instead I'll just add a few things...

Isn't the way this is put: "OMG U READ SO Y U NO REPLY?!?!?@@!!@#$&*%^% U HAET ME IM LEEVING!!11!" ... just a teensy bit childish and obnoxious ?

Yes, that's the point. It was what I felt to be an increasingly prevalent attitude on the forum, expressed as hyperbole.

The Mods, after all, should be setting an example to the contributors of this forum , not passing comment on what certain individuals decide to do with their gallery or what they think.

If a gallery has no art in it, it's not a gallery anymore and really has no place on this site. I can either lock the thread or try to encourage the owner to put some stuff up, so in that sense, yes, we do have a say on what people decide to do with their gallery.

surely as Mods they should be looking into why the forum has become like it is. Politeness , I think , has a big part to play in this - or lack of it.

As far as the forum becoming the way it is, I've seen it before. When it's been a while since a major PDN release, activity goes down. People with galleries get frustrated at the lack of comments, and this drama starts up. Every time.

A couple of posters have recently asked where the 'Karma Points' or Respect Button is. I wonder if this forum has this feature?

I think we tried that but it ended up crashing IE7. This was before IE9 was out, so it wasn't reasonable to "abandon" that browser yet. Now that IE7 is two versions old, it may be OK.

?? An easy mistake to make. We're nearly identical. While it's true that Pyrochild is brighter and slightly taller than me, I like to think I am marginally better looking :lol:

I'm pretty short...

Pyro, if I visited a gallery & the artist was present, which I have, there is no way in the world that I would walk by & not acknowledge his/her efforts, whether I like the works or not. That would simply be unacceptably rude of me.

Yes, my analogy was flawed.

Your comments to Matt101840 were harsh.

Agreed.

On it being the friendliest forum, I really would have to beg to differ.

Me too. I've seen friendlier forums. Sickeningly friendly. Like everyone has a smile painted on their face constantly. It feels so fake.

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Pyro, expectations unmet make the soul sick.

We expect certain things from people & that relates to all areas of our lives. When we fail to live up to others' expectations it results in conflict to varying degrees.

People base their expectations on assumptions or the conclusions they draw, coloured by their beliefs & values. It is the human condition.

This thread has gone a long way to clearing up what we should expect from this forum, & I for one have been way off the mark in this regard.

Text based communication is difficult & often misconstrued since it lacks all of the non-verbal component of communication. Add to the mix personality, culture & generation, & there is bound to be some problems.

I read the thread that started this all, & I am truly sorry to read about your troubles. It is so easy to forget that people have lives away from this forum & we expect mods to be angelically perfect, which being human they cannot. I have said to a number of people that you & other mods probably have a lot on your plate. As far as I know you are still studying & I know how that puts pressure on a person.

On the upside, every group or club, goes through some stages such as forming (which is now passed), storming (where ideas conflict), norming (which means that things go along swimmingly, according to plans made) & performing (we get the job done). A very nice model BUT this might work well for work teams that assemble for a project, whereas longer term teams/groups will go through the storming & norming stage a few times. I recall the hive of activity after we moved the forum to here. A new release will do the same, as mentioned (don't recall who said it, sorry). All of this I see as a good sign that the are people who care enough to voice their opinions & people who care enough to address those issues.

I hope this thread serves as a touchstone for future conflicts (yeah, there will be...)

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I'd like to see that feature definitely but with the negative disabled. Hugs are good for you.

Reputation is enabled, positive only. Let's give this a try.

<3

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@Sfifer: The point reduction buttons can be disabled.

?? An easy mistake to make. We're nearly identical. While it's true that Pyrochild is brighter and slightly taller than me, I like to think I am marginally better looking :lol:

Oh awesome. And I knew it was you EER all along... Was just testing you.... Yeah that's it.

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If a gallery has no art in it, it's not a gallery anymore and really has no place on this site. I can either lock the thread or try to encourage the owner to put some stuff up, so in that sense, yes, we do have a say on what people decide to do with their gallery.

Point taken. I`ve started adding to my gallery again now anyway but you are quite right Pyro. No point in having a gallery if it is not used.

All in all I agree with Barbie. It`s always nice to clear the air and get things straightened out. Many thanks go to Welshy for starting this thread. ;)

Just noticed the Reputation button. Nice idea but I would just like to know how you increase(or decrease! :D ) the number . Is it down to the number of posts or something?

Edited by Goonfella
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Awwww.... come on welshy, that was Pyro boltbait.tongue.png He was probably just having a laugh... I don't see why that's a crime boltbait.hmm.png

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