Save vs Save As

[ThatDutchGuy]

Of all the (graphics) programs I use, PDN is the only one that shows this behavior. Not sure if other software acts in different ways...

1. I open a JPG (or PNG, or whatever) file.
2. I make edits, adding some layers, your general graphics program usage.
3. I hit CTRL-S (or File/Save, if I feel particularly mousy).

I'm asked what file type I want to save the file

as

, with the PDN extension preselected. Uh, what?

It gets quite frustrating when I hit CTRL-S, upload what I think is an adjusted file to my web server, refresh the web page to see the result... and see no changes, because PDN is waiting for me to indicate in what format I want to save my file, which already had a format, because I opened an existing file.

I understand that PDN is a simple, free application. So I understand that code is kept simple, so layers are permanently flattened when saving. However, certain shortcut key-combinations have a pretty well-defined resulting action in Windows, CTRL-S being a quick save without dialog. That is, of course, unless certain changes have a big enough effect on a file that a confirmation is needed - the keyword being "confirmation".

In the case of a graphics program, if I edit a non-layer-supporting file to have layers, a quick-save should simply ask if I want to flatten (Y/N), do it, save, and be done. Push come to shove, it shouldn't be too hard to do a quick save, and then automate the "undo" history to go back to the state my edits were in before I hit Save.

If I want to make copies in another file format, I know where to find the Save As function, really, I do.

Please make CTRL-S behave like CTRL-S. Thanks!

Edited November 29, 2010 by ThatDutchGuy

[pyrochild]

If the current filetype does not support layers, and you've added layers, it should absolutely not just flatten it and assume that's what you want. It takes an extra 0.25 seconds to flatten it yourself before saving. Do it.

[yellowman]

Agree with ThatDutchGuy 100%, lets Save stay as Save, the Dialog window and even the Flatten question are unnecessary.

That help a lot when you need to check your image frequently if any changes added to it, so just click save and go check the image in your default image viewer.

And one more thing, when you open a file and add new layers to it then save it as PDN, then when you flatten it and click Save as the dialog windows opens with PDN option, and if you click save by mistake you will lose all your work, so the best thing when Flatten order is given to a file, the program should recognize that this file is single layer and opens the dialog window to PNG when clicking save or save as.

[Rick Brewster]

You're missing the point. The key is that he added layers. Saving as a JPEG at that point would be a data loss bug, which is one of the worst kinds (2nd in priority only to security issues). Saving as a PDN without prompting would be confusing and just as bad. Thus, Paint.NET prompts you.

This is not about "simple code because it's free." It's about upholding the principle of least surprise. What's worse? "Woops, my JPG doesn't have any of my edits ... oh, I saved as a .PDN ... but that's ok, because none of my data has been lost. I will open, flatten, and resave!", or ... "Woops, I lost all my layers even though I wanted to go and move them around again, and thus I have lost both the original image and my structured edits to it."

...layers are permanently flattened when saving

No, they're not. You can save as a .PDN to preserve them. Hence the prompting when you add layers.

Ctrl+S for Save has never been defined as "save without a dialog." It means, "if possible, save right away, assuming you have all the information needed to do so without causing the user any data loss or undue surprise." You'll notice that even saving a JPEG after opening it will give you the Save Configuration dialog. That's because Paint.NET doesn't know what quality setting should be used for saving it.

I can give you a 100% probability that this behavior will not be changing. Ever.

[Rick Brewster]

And one more thing, when you open a file and add new layers to it then save it as PDN, then when you flatten it and click Save as the dialog windows opens with PDN option, and if you click save by mistake you will lose all your work, so the best thing when Flatten order is given to a file, the program should recognize that this file is single layer and opens the dialog window to PNG when clicking save or save as.

No. If you open a PDN, then it has full generality over PNG. Defaulting back to PNG would be surprising or unexpected behavior over the long run. Paint.NET flipping back and forth between PNG and PDN all the time for the same file would be obnioxious.

Please people, think about how your suggestions would play out over the long haul and not just in your specific scenario. It is not that arduous to think through other scenarios to figure out why things behave in the way they do, nor is it so painful to learn a few other commands in order to get the correct workflow for your needs.

Also, this is neither a Troubleshooting nor a Bug Report post.

Moving to General Discussion

[ThatDutchGuy]

Yeah, I see I made an erroneous assumption.

I've been using Jasc Paint Shop Pro at home for several years and I've gotten used to the single "This will remove all layers and flatten your file, continue? Yes/No"; to wit, most of the software I use has the "Warning! Continue? Yes/No[/Cancel]" option when using the "Save" item (as opposed to "Save As").

After the first reply I dug in for a bit, and found that the behavior PDN displays (and the advice given to stop a "Save As" from popping up when quick-saving) is actually consistent with Adobe PhotoShop, and makes more sense than I initially believed it to do.

The research did show me that I'm not the only one who got caught by surprise by this methodology, though, so at the least this thread is educational for other PDN users that want to know the same thing.

"First Flatten, Then Save, Then get layers back" makes more sense than "Save - Argh why don't you flatten for me!?"

Thanks for educating me.

[yellowman]

May be it wasn't clear enough from me, all I was talking about is not for the final saving, and this is not the scenario that I want, but I am seeing many people complaining about losing their 10s of layers took ages to create with one wrong click, but rarely heard people saving there one single layer final work in PDN format for publishing...!

Oh BTW not everything in PhotoShop is a lead.

[BaltimoreWill]

No. If you open a PDN, then it has full generality over PNG. Defaulting back to PNG would be surprising or unexpected behavior over the long run. Paint.NET flipping back and forth between PNG and PDN all the time for the same file would be obnioxious.

The missing ingredient here is the equivalent of Adobe's "Save for Web" feature. Save for Web is an alternative Save that does not induce the "flipping" behavior you mention. The primary file one is editing remains untouched and, more important, uncollapsed.

Resizing is part of Save for Web. I much prefer the Adobe approach because it is not necessary to resize on the canvas prior to saving and the original remains untouched after the Save for Web.

[mountnman]

im sorry but i just dont see a problem, it takes only a few seconds to "format" my image to save it the way i want,

if i want it flattened i flatten it- a couple of seconds, if i want it resized i resize it, a few more

and does it realy take that long to hit the drop menu to choose a file type?

in less than the time it takes to gripe about it, ill have my image set up to personal taste and be on to something else

[BaltimoreWill]

... does it realy take that long ...?

No, it doesn't. But it takes longer to perform these steps in PDN than it takes in Adobe Photoshop Elements (PSE) and when you're doing a lot of editing those seconds can add up.

The result is that I use PDN a lot for quick and dirty edits, such as grabbing a screen capture, cropping it, and saving the result to be used in an email message or a Web tutorial or something like that. In these cases I almost never keep the original, so PDN is very, very fast. But when I want to keep the original, I almost never use PDN. I have hundreds of PSE-compatible PSD files from over the years and almost no saved PDN files despite having used it since version 1. If PDN was faster to use for more of my work, I'd probably use it more.

I don't want anyone to misunderstand me here. I like PDN and I recommend it constantly. It has gotten consistently better and I expect that to continue. I posted here because I agree that the way Save currently works is not as good as it could be and there are exemplars for how it could be better.

[mountnman]

ahh i see

but i do see the arguement against it too.

hmmm possible solution? a second "Quick Save" button that would save to a file type previously set by user and automaticly take the actions needed(such as flatten) to save as that file type

then we would have both