[SOTW Discussion] Talk inside...

[Cc4FuzzyHuggles 319]

But that gives people the upper hand who are able to understand codelab.

 

Hello nitenurse79.

I can understand what you are saying. I think people who are real artists have a big upper hand too. It takes skill and knowledge to use paint.net, and it takes skill and knowledge for more advanced ways of using paint.net, whether that be drawing masterpieces with only the paintbrush tool or whether that means knowing all of paint.net's plugins and using them to their fullest potential.

 

It almost doesn't feel fair putting people who don't know how to code against people who do know how to code, but the same could be said for letting people with artistic talent enter in the same competition as someone who only knows how to draw stick people. Or pitting people who use plugins against people who don't/won't/can't use plugins, or people who have had real art lessons vs people who haven't. Smart cookies are difficult people to go up against. Another unfair scenario could be the devices people use, for example, I don't know if people can use paint.net with smart devices, but drawing on a tablet vs drawing with a mouse might seem unfair, or using a desktop mouse vs a laptop's touch pad mouse might seem unfair. However, we don't have enough participants nor competitions to divide everything up into fair contests based on skill, talent, photo manips, 100% pdn, tech geeks, devices, education level, etc. The only competitions we can do right now are free-for-alls. Big single competitions for anyone and everyone that want to try to have fun and try their best. Anyone can enter the current competitions, kids who are still learning, professional graphic editors, people afraid of downloading plugins, people who know artistic tricks like proper shading, people without education, people with computer education, or average paint.net hobbyists. But the free-for-all idea can change I guess, if people really want the comps to change.

 

So, it really comes down to whether or not we want strict rules and less participants, or if we want to keep things open and inviting to as many participants as possible. I personally prefer more participants, rather than excluding people. If the paint.net coding labs/plugins don't count as out-side programs, then I personally would like to see more plugin developers enter the fun. I love it when they show-off their work in competitions, even if their entries totally out-shine my entries. Shiny goodness for the win!

[toe_head2001 1,512]

No one is stopping anyone from learning how to understand or write code. Don't try to limit coders on account of the ignorance of non-coders.

 

In essence, non-coders have the freedom to learn, and coders have the freedom to use what they already know.

 

I will not forgo my freedom just because you have forgone yours.

 

[skullbonz 359]

When I saw his/her entry posted it was after the poll announcement but surprisingly it is before it today. 

 

The plugin was released today, a day later. 

Edited May 21, 2015 by skullbonz

[MJW 1,141]

The plugin was released today, a day later.

 

So instead of asking how I produced the effect using Clouds, you accuse me of lying about how I produced it. Then you say I cheated by trying to pass off non-PDN work as PDN, and lied about that. Now your excuse is that I didn't release the plugin until today. I'm under no obligation to release plugins. I have no say it, but I think you should be assessed warning points for your baseless accusations.

[midora 203]

Competions are much more than just a place to compete.

They collect ideas about a certain theme.

That's great.

[Pixey 4,074]

 Don't try to limit coders on account of the ignorance of non-coders.

 

 

Personally I take umbrage on that comment .  No one likes being told they are ignorant.

 

As for me writing code                what a laugh .............. I'll use the regular Plugins thank you!

[chimay12321 64]

I think it's right MJW withdrew his entry, but that's because he doesn't really use any fractals, so the entry violates rule nr. 3 (3. Keep to the theme that has been set.). There is not a single other reason his entry should not be allowed. I really do not care if he made fractals using CodeLab or any other such plugin. 

 

I think the problem lies with rule nr. 6 (6. Your entry must be made using paint.net, please don't use an outside image editor and try passing it off as PDN work. ). People who think CodeLab doesn't fit within this rule, please read words 9-14 (don't use an OUTSIDE IMAGE EDITOR) again. Codelab exists within PDN. So there is no rule against the usage of such tools.

 

As for the usage of codelab. Why should one not be able to use such great plugins in which you can use your particular talents? I have seen a lot of entries which use modified photographs, should these all be banned because not everyone has a fancy camera and the skills to make photographs with nice lighting etc.? I don't think so. I could give a hundred other examples of this kind that are just plain ridiculous.

 

As long as I'm the host here I will permit the usage of stock (if it's modified enough), including photographs, and I will permit the usage of parts within PDN that maybe not everybody can use effectively, but which are great tools nontheless. And I agree with toe_head2001 that if you want to catch up with the coders, try to use code some time  

 

In a way everyone has some kind of headstart, because everyone has his/her own talents that he/she could use making awesome content in PDN. If my talent is calligraphing or something, use that in your work! If my talent is coding, use it! If your talent is math, use it! (really, you can make great art only using math)

 

I hope everyone can live with this decision, if not, please tell me.

[barbieq25 946]

I am ignorant on coding. Geez, I have problems with linking let alone writing something useful in a plugin. Ignorant simply means you have no idea on something, Pixey. toe_head wasn't having a go at anyone & neither am I.

 

So few entries, so much squabbling. 

 

Is there any difference between releasing a plugin (thank you for your hard work!) after a comp & writing a mini-tute (thank you for your hard work!) after a comp?

 

So in the 6 years of me being here it has become an issue. I don't believe that know code is going to be a huge advantage in a comp. After all, you may not like the result & you are a voter also. 6 years of entries - I think I actually won one once Beside the point for me. I love how everyone interprets the brief. All eye candy for all of us.

 

Midora, I like your comment very much & yours too CC4. 

[Red ochre 1,498]

Good post Chimay! - well thought through, fair and (hopefully) inspiring too.

[nitenurse79 605]

Don't try to limit coders on account of the ignorance of non-coders.

If someone does not understand code is does NOT make them "ignorant"  To me that is insulting!

[Ego Eram Reputo 2,454]

Relax NN. I don't think that comment was meant to be insulting.

[Pixey 4,074]

If someone does not understand code is does NOT make them "ignorant"  To me that is insulting!

 

Thank you @NN - I'm glad I'm not the only one who found this noun totally un-necessary.

 

Yes, I understand the meaning of 'ignorance': 

 

"The condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed."     And I found it offensive too.

 

Based on the history of feelings being hurt on this forum, I think more care could have been given in this instance.

[midora 203]

Nobody should put the focus on one word and ignore ;-) the context.

 

>> Don't try to limit coders on account of the ignorance of non-coders.

 

That's just a response (not an attack) to the request that a tool should not be allowed just because some people do not know how to use it.

 

And it's not true Pixey that you are not able to do coding. If you are creating animations with ImAgif.FileType  then you already started to do this.

[chimay12321 64]

And hereby I end this pub brawl.

 

Please do not quarrel because someone may or may not have offended you in this topic. Ask toe_head in private if he meant to offend you if you lay awake at night because of this. 

 

I only want comments about the Signature of the Week competition here.

 

Thanks for your understanding. 

[skullbonz 359]

I have to apologize for accusing MJW of using Neoflames for the entry in SOTW because it is obvious now he used his own plugin which wasn't published at the time so I had no idea it even existed yet when I posted my complaint. 

[skullbonz 359]

I will not be entering in any more comps of any kind at this forum in the future. Other than a adding a few images in my gallery or select plugins to my bag of tricks I will also not be adding any comments on any other issues. It seems that no matter what I say, it causes drama so the best medicine for that is to remain silent. 

 

If by a slim chance I win this comp please ask the runner up to pick the next theme, I am done.

Edited May 22, 2015 by skullbonz

[MJW 1,141]

Thank you for your apology, skullbonz. I suggest in the future you exercise a little more restraint before accusing others of misbehavior, but hope you don't leave because of our dispute. I was, at least, perversely flattered that you didn't think the images I produced could be done using only PDN.

Edited May 22, 2015 by MJW

[chimay12321 64]

Hereby I postpone the deadline for entries in SOTW #131 to give you a bit more time to create all those scary monsters!

 

 

Deadline for entries postponed to Sunday 7th of June.

[Maximilian 1,883]

Very nice of you, chimay, so that I can finish my piece

[MJW 1,141]

Oceana (posting in the wrong place) says: Maybe down to the fact that some members are making secret plugin's in order to enter. Fairplay should be the order of the Day.

 

First, it has already been established that since CodeLab is part of PDN, writing plugins is fair play. Second, no one prevents you or anyone else from writing your own plugins. Third, those who write plugins contribute more than you do to PDN; do you believe the plugins you use wrote themselves? Fourth, I was the first to post an entry, and I clearly stated that I didn't use any non-published plugins for my entry.

[nitenurse79 605]

Sorry double post

[nitenurse79 605]

Oceana (posting in the wrong place) says: Maybe down to the fact that some members are making secret plugin's in order to enter. Fairplay should be the order of the Day.

 

First, it has already been established that since CodeLab is part of PDN, writing plugins is fair play. Second, no one prevents you or anyone else from writing your own plugins. Third, those who write plugins contribute more than you do to PDN; do you believe the plugins you use wrote themselves? Fourth, I was the first to post an entry, and I clearly stated that I didn't use any non-published plugins for my entry.

DrewDale posted the first entry. Chimay asked a question in the entry thread, Oceana simply replied to it. As the host HE should know better where to post his opinion.

 

And if you are going to write your own plugins, why not share them ? others do !

[MJW 1,141]

Sorry, you're correct NN. I did post my entry quite early in the comp, though. As host, Chimay has a perfect right to make comments in the entry thread; as non-host, Oceana should have replied in this thread.

 

I have published plugins The only non-published plugins I've used in comps are either quick one-offs that are so specific that they aren't worth publishing, or ones which I intend to publish eventually, but that aren't yet ready for prime time. I'm willing to put up with quirks and limitations in plugins that would make the plugin unsuitable for release. I use my beta Perspective Transformation plugin all the time, despite it's clunky interface, and believe me, it's elegant compared to some of my unpublished stuff. Using the plugins in a "real-life" situation often helps me know what's good and bad about them.

Edited June 8, 2015 by MJW

[midora 203]

And if you are going to write your own plugins, why not share them ? others do !

 

Next time you are posting an image I would expect a step by step description how you did it.

Kindergarten. And I'm part of it ;-)

[Eli 1,083]

I do not consider that being able to create effects or plugins is an advantage in the contest. For me, it is just another way of showing talent. I do not have a clue about writing plugins so I admire our programmers and I am very thankful when they share their creations. I also think that Paint.net is what it is now thanks to the many tools and time our talented programmers kindly share.