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Barack Obama has been inaugurated as president of the U.S.!

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And what's the difference between America and everywhere else? Oh yeah, we're the biggest and best.

Sozo, that is nothing more than just another example of the very arrogance that made the rest of the world condemn America many a time during the Bush years.

Oh, and David, you may give money to, say, Cancer Research or some other good cause, but if that was done with most money, the survival rate for certain illnesses would be 174% and poverty in Africa would be alleviated, but America would have no infrastructure whatsoever. We need something to tell us where the money's going, or otherwise it would become impossible. And, consider if we only gave to charity instead of paying taxes: charities would essentially start to compete for your freed up money, and we would have a very goodwilled rout on our hands.

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I assure you that the large majority of these people aren't alcoholics, or "lazy hicks".

Well, who else would need the support? The hard workers?

YES! Hard workers who happen to be victims of the circumstances! I'd give you an example, but ShadowsofTears (?) already gave a better example than I could ever give.

And what's the difference between America and everywhere else? Oh yeah, we're the biggest and best.

Please tell me that was a joke. Please. :roll:

--------------------------------------------------

"...I believe in a graduated income tax on big fortunes, and in another tax which is far more easily collected and far more effective; a graduated inheritance tax on big fortunes, properly safeguarded against evasion, and increasing rapidly in amount with the size of the estate."

~Theodore Roosevelt

"Because of things I have done on behalf of justice to the workingman, I have often been called a Socialist. Usually I have not taken the trouble even to notice the epithet. … Moreover, I know that many American Socialists are high-minded and honorable citizens, who in reality are merely radical social reformers. They are opposed to the brutalities and industrial injustices which we see everywhere about us. "

~Theodore Roosevelt

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I assure you that the large majority of these people aren't alcoholics, or "lazy hicks".

I worked at a grocery store for three and a half years, and I assure you from seeing person after person on government support that you're wrong. It's 50/50 at best.

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David, would your mother have got the treatment she needed if both she & your dad were both working flat-out just to pay rent, bills & buy food?

dont doctors hae to treat everyone even if they can't pay? they take some sort of oath.

edit: crud i had the wrong quote :evil:

i agree with david.

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David, would your mother have got the treatment she needed if both she & your dad were both working flat-out just to pay rent, bills & buy food?

dont doctors hae to treat everyone even if they can't pay? they take some sort of oath.

[\quote]

Not really. They aren't obliged to. The Hippocratic Oath doesn't say that.

EDIT: I'm not sure about the alternative by Louis Lasagna.

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Here is what the oath says:

I swear by Apollo the physician, and Asclepius, and Hygieia and Panacea and all the gods and goddesses as my witnesses, that, according to my ability and judgement, I will keep this Oath and this contract:

To hold him who taught me this art equally dear to me as my parents, to be a partner in life with him, and to fulfill his needs when required; to look upon his offspring as equals to my own siblings, and to teach them this art, if they shall wish to learn it, without fee or contract; and that by the set rules, lectures, and every other mode of instruction, I will impart a knowledge of the art to my own sons, and those of my teachers, and to students bound by this contract and having sworn this Oath to the law of medicine, but to no others.

I will use those dietary regimens which will benefit my patients according to my greatest ability and judgement, and I will do no harm or injustice to them.

I will not give a lethal drug to anyone if I am asked, nor will I advise such a plan; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion.

In purity and according to divine law will I carry out my life and my art.

I will not use the knife, even upon those suffering from stones, but I will leave this to those who are trained in this craft.

Into whatever homes I go, I will enter them for the benefit of the sick, avoiding any voluntary act of impropriety or corruption, including the seduction of women or men, whether they are free men or slaves.

Whatever I see or hear in the lives of my patients, whether in connection with my professional practice or not, which ought not to be spoken of outside, I will keep secret, as considering all such things to be private.

So long as I maintain this Oath faithfully and without corruption, may it be granted to me to partake of life fully and the practice of my art, gaining the respect of all men for all time. However, should I transgress this Oath and violate it, may the opposite be my fate.

Source: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/hmd/greek/greek_oath.html

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There are several versions of the Hippocratic Oath. It depends on which school the doctor graduated from. Not many people swear by Greek gods anymore. :-)

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And doctors guiding human euthanisation is legal in Oregon (with the patient's consent of course). :shock:

EDIT: Wow. Obama --> Euthanisation. This thread is swerving into crazy off-topic madness.

EDIT2: Can there be crazy madness?

EDIT3: That is does that make sense gramatically?

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Ok Dave seeing this debate is not going to go into the 2 year old state that I thougth it was going to go into after sozo comment. I will come back into the debate of why I believe you and other can benefit from this.

You say your health care will cover you. How sure are you that you will be coverted no matter were you are in the USA, no matter what happens to you, and no matter what place with a H on it that they bring you to.

We already saw one person in this forum tell you why insurance means notthing, not even if you served in the millitary with there story of there father.

Dave if you had a life treating disorder your insurance is more likely to turn there backs on you.

Insurance is into making money, not having to spend a lot of it.

Dave I understand what you fear. You think that this means you will have to pay such a high tax that you wont have any money to spend on yourself. That something you don't need to worry about as you will pay a low tax rate. Mean while your payrate at work will go up.

I live in the one place in Canada that has the highest tax rate. Making my tax rate 13% on everything I buy but things own by goverment. So things like Milk are tax free. No were else in all of Canada pays that much. Matter a fact there are places here that don't pay taxs because goverment has there hands in things like oil from them places.

Now because of this system, cost of living is really good to us. Prices to buy items are cheap, and payrates are high. It also makes more jobs here.

min wage is $8.00 an hour. We all know what min wage jobs are, ther working at age 16 in wal-mart or Mc D. They say its going up again. Dave how much are you making right now and how far is it from min wage and then ball park how much you would really be making here per hour. I will give you an insight of how much better it is now. I started work at 16 at CO-OP for min wage of $6.50, then it went up to $6.75, Then it jumped to $8.00 in the next year when I moved.

Do all schools in the USA learn the same things from the same books. They do here as it part of the system that everyone gets an equal learning.

Dave you got to see the benefits to this. If you do it right it will work. I am not saying there wont be mistakes but it will work it self out in the end.

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Ok Dave seeing this debate is not going to go into the 2 year old state that I thougth it was going to go into after sozo comment. I will come back into the debate of why I believe you and other can benefit from this.

You say your health care will cover you. How sure are you that you will be coverted no matter were you are in the USA, no matter what happens to you, and no matter what place with a H on it that they bring you to.

We already saw one person in this forum tell you why insurance means notthing, not even if you served in the millitary with there story of there father.

Dave if you had a life treating disorder your insurance is more likely to turn there backs on you.

Insurance is into making money, not having to spend a lot of it.

Dave I understand what you fear. You think that this means you will have to pay such a high tax that you wont have any money to spend on yourself. That something you don't need to worry about as you will pay a low tax rate. Mean while your payrate at work will go up.

I live in the one place in Canada that has the highest tax rate. Making my tax rate 13% on everything I buy but things own by goverment. So things like Milk are tax free. No were else in all of Canada pays that much. Matter a fact there are places here that don't pay taxs because goverment has there hands in things like oil from them places.

Now because of this system, cost of living is really good to us. Prices to buy items are cheap, and payrates are high. It also makes more jobs here.

min wage is $8.00 an hour. We all know what min wage jobs are, ther working at age 16 in wal-mart or Mc D. They say its going up again. Dave how much are you making right now and how far is it from min wage and then ball park how much you would really be making here per hour. I will give you an insight of how much better it is now. I started work at 16 at CO-OP for min wage of $6.50, then it went up to $6.75, Then it jumped to $8.00 in the next year when I moved.

Do all schools in the USA learn the same things from the same books. They do here as it part of the system that everyone gets an equal learning.

Dave you got to see the benefits to this. If you do it right it will work. I am not saying there wont be mistakes but it will work it self out in the end.

only thing is your health care system sucks. people sometimes go into the US to see doctors instead of waiting forever in canada.

whats the point of making everything equal if it is horrible.

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I assure you that the large majority of these people aren't alcoholics, or "lazy hicks".

Well, who else would need the support? The hard workers?

YES! Hard workers who happen to be victims of the circumstances! I'd give you an example, but ShadowsofTears (?) already gave a better example than I could ever give.

See, I already advocate that. But socialism would make no distinction.

And what's the difference between America and everywhere else? Oh yeah, we're the biggest and best.

Please tell me that was a joke. Please. :roll:

Well, it was intended to be a lighthearted elbow-nudge kind of comment, but it came off wrong. My apologies to every forum member who now thinks I'm an arrogant USA supremacist.

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Well, it was intended to be a lighthearted elbow-nudge kind of comment, but it came off wrong. My apologies to every forum member who now thinks I'm an arrogant USA supremacist.

WHOO! go USA!

sorry.. finger slipped... :oops:

:twisted:

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only thing is your health care system sucks. people sometimes go into the US to see doctors instead of waiting forever in canada.

whats the point of making everything equal if it is horrible.

Maybe you should move to Canada and become one of us before you talk about the wait time as you know notthing about it at all. If your from the USA and you came up here for help then ya you may wait as we look after our own 1st. I have never waited more then 10 - 15 mins to see a docter. My father who has more problems then you could ever know of has wait 20 mins one time and he being called down all the time were they believe he is now going to lose his leg that has lasted 30 years when the doc said it was only going to last 10. That docter did a fine job fixing that leg up after the shotgun blast in 1975.

Ya dude my health care system sucks on facts that you know notthing about :roll:. I can't say you will wait forever to see a docter in the USA because I don't live in the USA. But guess what you can't say you will wait forever to see a docter here in Canada as you don't live here in Canada. I also know I wont be turned away but I do know people from the US that have been. I also know a guy named Ken who is out $150,000 because of your system and he was covered. But being covered is not being safe.

Learn it before you teach it !

I got a feeling wait time are the same as US. It based on were you live and the number of people vs docters.

Oh by the way seeing we are the ones coming over there to pay like $1000 to see a docter maybe you can tell your people to stop stealing our ID's to come over here and use our system so they get free health care and cheaper meds. Like them fire fighters from 911 that you turned your backs on ! wait they went to Cuba for health care, geez thats right.

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/new ... e425c22052

http://lilithnews.blogspot.com/2008/08/ ... hoddy.html

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I have. And the fact is that European nations with socialized health care systems are privatizing their hospitals.

Read this article for more: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118299749082651013.html

It's from the Wall Street Journal, one of the MOST respected periodicals on the PLANET.

@Sozo- sorry I didn't catch the funny. :-)

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I have. And the fact is that European nations with socialized health care systems are privatizing their hospitals.

Read this article for more: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118299749082651013.html

It's from the Wall Street Journal, one of the MOST respected periodicals on the PLANET.

@Sozo- sorry I didn't catch the funny. :-)

Don't worry. Looking back, it didn't fit the context of the rest of my post, as the post was a bit more serious.

Very interesting article. This raises red flags for statements like, "why doesn't America use socialized healthcare like the rest of the world?"

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I have. And the fact is that European nations with socialized health care systems are privatizing their hospitals.

Read this article for more: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118299749082651013.html

It's from the Wall Street Journal, one of the MOST respected periodicals on the PLANET.

@Sozo- sorry I didn't catch the funny. :-)

Sorry Dave I ended up adding more to my post for the texas dude with links. While your reading that I will read your story on my health care system. By the way the 1st link in mine is on my own health care system by a news company here about yor people robing our ID cards for our health care.

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Dave I feel as if the guy who wrote that was not from Canada as he never went in thing like why Ontario has a higher wait time. I also loved the part about Lindsay McCreith not doing the smart thing and going right to ER and getting that MIR then and there. Geez as I was saying my father been in and out more now as he may lose his leg and the other one is not working right as well. He all set for tests and was asked were he like to go. The city 4 hours away or the city 2 hours away. Don't matter he can go to whichever one he wants to go to and has set his date.

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Dave I feel as if the guy who wrote that was not from Canada as he never went in thing like why Ontario has a higher wait time.
Canadians visiting the U.S. to receive health care

Some residents of Canada travel to the United States in frustration with the limitations of their own health care system, as illustrated by the following examples:

* According to a September 14, 2007, article from CTV News, Canadian Liberal MP Belinda Stronach went to the United States for breast cancer surgery in June 2007. Stronach's spokesperson Greg MacEachern was quoted in the article saying that the US was the best place to have this type of surgery done. Stronach paid for the surgery out of her own pocket.[37] Prior to this incident, Stronach had stated in an interview that she was against two-tiered health care.[38]

* When Robert Bourassa, the premier of Quebec, needed cancer treatment, he went to the US to get it.[39]

* In 2007, it was reported that Canada sent scores of pregnant women to the US to give birth.[40] In 2007 a woman from Calgary who was pregnant with quadruplets was sent to Great Falls, Montana to give birth. An article on this incident states, "There was no room at any other Canadian neonatal intensive care unit."[41]

* Champion figure skater Audrey Williams needed a hip replacement. Even though she waited two years and suffered in pain, she still did not get the surgery, because the waiting list was so long. So she went to the US and spent her own money to get the surgery.[42]

* A January 19, 2008, article in The Globe And Mail states, "More than 150 critically ill Canadians – many with life-threatening cerebral hemorrhages – have been rushed to the United States since the spring of 2006 because they could not obtain intensive-care beds here. Before patients with bleeding in or outside the brain have been whisked through U.S. operating-room doors, some have languished for as long as eight hours in Canadian emergency wards while health-care workers scrambled to locate care."

i especially like how those who had the brain hemorrhages had to go to the US to treatment...

:roll: oh wait their health care must be so good and this has to be a lie. its all equal there so its good.

http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/heal ... tml#canada

more good stuff on Canada health care.

British one too, if you want it.

http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/heal ... ml#britain

My health-care prejudices crumbled not in the classroom but on the way to one. On a subzero Winnipeg morning in 1997, I cut across the hospital emergency room to shave a few minutes off my frigid commute. Swinging open the door, I stepped into a nightmare: the ER overflowed with elderly people on stretchers, waiting for admission. Some, it turned out, had waited five days. The air stank with sweat and urine. Right then, I began to reconsider everything that I thought I knew about Canadian health care. I soon discovered that the problems went well beyond overcrowded ERs. Patients had to wait for practically any diagnostic test or procedure, such as the man with persistent pain from a hernia operation whom we referred to a pain clinic—with a three-year wait list; or the woman needing a sleep study to diagnose what seemed like sleep apnea, who faced a two-year delay; or the woman with breast cancer who needed to wait four months for radiation therapy, when the standard of care was four weeks.

http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_3_c ... hcare.html

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Dave I feel as if the guy who wrote that was not from Canada as he never went in thing like why Ontario has a higher wait time. I also loved the part about Lindsay McCreith not doing the smart thing and going right to ER and getting that MIR then and there. Geez as I was saying my father been in and out more now as he may lose his leg and the other one is not working right as well. He all set for tests and was asked were he like to go. The city 4 hours away or the city 2 hours away. Don't matter he can go to whichever one he wants to go to and has set his date.

No matter how rosy your experiences have been, that in no way reflects the majority of experiences in Canadian health care. Would you rely on a poll if there were only 2 or 3 people involved? I hope your father gets the very best of care, but the fact remains that you are generalizing.

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And what's the difference between America and everywhere else? Oh yeah, we're the biggest and best.

Please tell me that was a joke. Please. :roll:

Well, it was intended to be a lighthearted elbow-nudge kind of comment, but it came off wrong. My apologies to every forum member who now thinks I'm an arrogant USA supremacist.

Yeah, knowing you I had a feeling it was like that but the lack of emoticon made me suspicious.

EDIT: :)

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I am happy you put more then a Wikipedia quote there :lol: seeing there not always facts or right as anyone can make a page or edit them.

I really love the site that went all over the net to find cases to try and put down Socialized health care. Geez I guess I never be able to find news storys all over the net about why your health care sucks from people point of view :roll:.

http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?art ... _is_so_bad

http://www.dollarsandsense.org/healthcare.html

I like this part :lol:.

Yes, it is true that Americans have a lower life expectancy than Canada, half of the Caribbean including Puerto Rico and Cuba, Chile, all of Western Europe some of Eastern Europe, Israel, Jordan, Singapore, Hong Kong, Japan, Australia and New Zealand.

But we still live, on average, about one year longer than Libya, according to World Health Organization and CIA statistics.

http://www.livescience.com/health/06050 ... hcare.html

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hGP ... ih15Ap-bFg

See hyrule I to can dig up pages upon pages like you did. Why is that ?, oh I know it has to do with the fact that things happen in every health care system. People don't get health care in one place when they want it, they go to another place and tell people how bad the last system was to them. I just find it funny how many of the people in canada that said they could not get health care went to another place in the world instead of doing the smart thing and going somewere else in Canada :roll:. Why fly out of Canada if you can do something like fly down here for less and get the health care for free at another hospital. That is unless your not really from Canada and don't have a MCP card. Which is one of the cases in Ontario.

I really love how you like to say forget ya if you can't get health care to your own people. So you working hyrule ? You make enough to cover yourself even if you got insurance as we both know that does not mean for 100% you are covered and if you think it does then you need to go a few pages back and read one of your own people posts about what should of never happened.

Can you see it hyrule, I can. Your working your guts out trying to make a living, your the idea of the hard working man and then bang you hit the floor. They take you to a hospital and they tell you that you have a problem that will be very painfull and will lead to your death in the next 10 years. The treatment will not fix it for sure but you can try it. The treatment will cost you $2000 a day for the next 10 years. Yet your insurance does not cover you and drops you with some letter saying they let you go for other reasons and it your fault. That sounds nice, the hard working man means nothing as it about how much not your status in the working life. You take the treatment and then die leaving your love ones with bills. You don't take the treatment and die leaving your love ones without bills and money to get you a nice head stone. I come down with that same illness and I take the treatment and die. I leave my love ones with no bills and money to get me a nice head stone. We both died in the end as we were told that the treatment was not going to work on us but we could still try it.

----

EDIT:

Btw keep on topic as the part about US having better equipment before anywere else has to do with the facts you wont sell the equipment outside of the US for a while 1st and then other places can pick it up. Same thing with meds. Canada wont buy new meds from the US right away till they start selling them outside the US and till they pass the standards here to ensure they do work and wont cause greater health problems. This has notthing to do with the system being socialism

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Btw keep on topic...

If you want to keep on topic, then this entire discussion has to end. This thread is about Barack Obama, not socialized health care.

And yes, we can all go all over the internet finding information that fits our case. But you won't get anywhere with me if you try to say that Wikipedia is not a valid source. Perhaps not the most reliable - I'm willing to grant that - but it is valid. Have you ever seen the tags that say [citation needed]? The huge number of editors on Wikipedia mean that the information is instantly doubted the moment it's put on the site. If it's well-sourced or well-known, people will approve of it and leave it alone. If it's dubious but minor or benign, users might tag it with [citation needed], meaning that you should trust it only after verifying it. But if it's a ludicrous claim with no sources, it will be removed immediately. Claims of Wikipedia's error rate are made by people who don't understand Wikipedia. "Science" magazine compared major articles in Wikipedia and the Encyclopedia Britannica and found their error rate to be virtually identical.

So it is reliable. As I said, not necessarily the most reliable. But we're not trying to calculate the flight vectors of an ion engine as it escapes our atmosphere - we're just trying to make sense of socialized medicine.

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Dave I could not help but ask him to stick to one thing as we were talking about health care and he was linking to topics about equipment and docter care being worst in a socialized health care system. Lets face it, if you did go over to a socialized health care system, your not going to stop research. Docters are not going to be there going, geez open heart surgery maybe we should not do it the way we did before. We should try spoons to scoop out the heart.

This was the impression I was getting from hyrule.

Dave I just think everyone should have the right to health care poor or rich. Lets face it there is a lot of poor people who are working there guts out and can't get health care. This would look after them.

Everone who buys something would be helping and at the end of the year you could get a tax refune.

Now is the debate still on the level and everyone still ok ? or is the debate gone into personal space were we want to kill one another over point of views ?

Me - I am ok with it and have no problems with anyone here at all.

However if someone here is hating or now dislikes someone over there personal point of views on this debate, then it time to stop debating health care.

We all know what they say starts wars.

So question is, are we cool and still friends ?

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