Barack Obama has been inaugurated as president of the U.S.!

[HITMAN-X-]

Think about it BB, what you pay in tax for it, is worth it in the long run because you never know what will happen. For all you know you could end up with a $500,000 bill for health care.

Which is why many people have health insurance.

and it still cheaper and better the other way simon. Go see Sicko and learn that insurance could be the same as not having it at all.

Your system was based on making money on pain. It a item your buying and if your not buying then they don't want to help you. It a cold heart business. Just ask your friend Nixon and remember he is not a crook.

[ShadowsOfTears]

Health care for the needy is important. I understand how it ticks people off that so many people abuse it. It does me as well, because they have changed this and changed that, to keep people from abusing the system, yet all it does is make it harder for people who truly need help to get help. I lived next door to someone for 2 years who was abusing the system. But it doesn't mean it should be taken away because of these idiots.

A last year my father died from reasons unknown. It was listed as general poor health after the autopsy was done. A year before he died, he had a massive brain aneurysm, right where your spinal cord meets your brain. It was about the size of a large man's fist. He was also a veteran Marine of 30+ years. He managed to survive the trip to the hospital, and then a life flight to a hospital in Columbus, Ohio. Most people never survive that kind of aneurysm long enough for the ambulance to even get there. While in Columbus, he was in ICU, they did two major operations to fix the problem. He spent over a month in ICU, and once he was released, he had to go through rigorous rehabilitation. He had to learn to walk, to read, to eat, to speak, to tie his own shoes again. My father, who was only 49 years old when he died, was now mentally handicapped and unable to work. The insurance he had left through the military refused to cover anything. One, because he did not receive treatment at their hospital, where he surely would have died, and two, because there was no proof that it wasn't a preexisting condition. Meaning, he could have been born with it, but no one knew about it until it ruptured. He was denied social security disability FOUR times. Four freaking times, and the man was basically mentally retarded. By this time, he had racked up medical bills of over a million dollars. The hospital sued him, the bank repossessed his home and his truck. The military was garnishing his retirement check, and giving it to the hospital.

So, now you have a man, who had an unfortunate accident, was unable to work, owed massive amounts of money to a hospital, no longer had a home, and no longer had a vehicle so his girlfriend could take him back and forth to rehab. Then at this point, he couldn't even have rehab anymore, because they wouldn't accept him without a copay before appointments. A man who was being denied money from a government that he served since he was 17 years old. How is that even right? How can we live in a place that does this to people? We received a letter, 6 months after my father died, that he was approved for SS disability.

A lot of people scream about how people are abusing the system, and how socialistic health care is bad. That they shouldn't have to pay for poor people in anyway shape or form. Socialistic health care may have saved my father's life. It may have saved hundreds of thousands of people across the country, who could have gotten the cancer treatments that they needed. Or any other treatments that they needed. And who says that my father's life, or anyone else whose life that has been lost due to lack of the medical care that was needed, is any less valuable than anyone else? People who have money, and never had to watch someone waste away because they could afford it? People who have never had a situation like this in their life?

Ever hear of doing something for the greater good?

[Bobofthedead]

Evidently not. Most people who argue against socialised health care haven't had anything major happen to them medically, I'll wager.

If my family were American, my grandfather would not be able to do anything but kill himself due to the debt left from his wife's illnesses during the last decade of her life. She ended up virtually unable to do anything for herself after 10 years of virtually every illness under the sun. The money spent on her must have been phenomenal, and if it weren't for the NHS, my grandfather would have had to foot the bill for all of it.

[Simon Brown]

and it still cheaper and better the other way simon.

I realise that and agree, I just felt you were ignoring that.

[HITMAN-X-]

Health care for the needy is important. I understand how it ticks people off that so many people abuse it. It does me as well, because they have changed this and changed that, to keep people from abusing the system, yet all it does is make it harder for people who truly need help to get help. I lived next door to someone for 2 years who was abusing the system. But it doesn't mean it should be taken away because of these idiots.

A last year my father died from reasons unknown. It was listed as general poor health after the autopsy was done. A year before he died, he had a massive brain aneurysm, right where your spinal cord meets your brain. It was about the size of a large man's fist. He was also a veteran Marine of 30+ years. He managed to survive the trip to the hospital, and then a life flight to a hospital in Columbus, Ohio. Most people never survive that kind of aneurysm long enough for the ambulance to even get there. While in Columbus, he was in ICU, they did two major operations to fix the problem. He spent over a month in ICU, and once he was released, he had to go through rigorous rehabilitation. He had to learn to walk, to read, to eat, to speak, to tie his own shoes again. My father, who was only 49 years old when he died, was now mentally handicapped and unable to work. The insurance he had left through the military refused to cover anything. One, because he did not receive treatment at their hospital, where he surely would have died, and two, because there was no proof that it wasn't a preexisting condition. Meaning, he could have been born with it, but no one knew about it until it ruptured. He was denied social security disability FOUR times. Four freaking times, and the man was basically mentally retarded. By this time, he had racked up medical bills of over a million dollars. The hospital sued him, the bank repossessed his home and his truck. The military was garnishing his retirement check, and giving it to the hospital.

So, now you have a man, who had an unfortunate accident, was unable to work, owed massive amounts of money to a hospital, no longer had a home, and no longer had a vehicle so his girlfriend could take him back and forth to rehab. Then at this point, he couldn't even have rehab anymore, because they wouldn't accept him without a copay before appointments. A man who was being denied money from a government that he served since he was 17 years old. How is that even right? How can we live in a place that does this to people? We received a letter, 6 months after my father died, that he was approved for SS disability.

A lot of people scream about how people are abusing the system, and how socialistic health care is bad. That they shouldn't have to pay for poor people in anyway shape or form. Socialistic health care may have saved my father's life. It may have saved hundreds of thousands of people across the country, who could have gotten the cancer treatments that they needed. Or any other treatments that they needed. And who says that my father's life, or anyone else whose life that has been lost due to lack of the medical care that was needed, is any less valuable than anyone else? People who have money, and never had to watch someone waste away because they could afford it? People who have never had a situation like this in their life?

Ever hear of doing something for the greater good?

BINGO !

You hit it on the head. As I was saying you should not fear something you never tryed and works. As I said I live in Canada and I am telling you this will be a good thing for USA. No it will not cover illegal imagrants so you should not worry about that bloody potato and as I said some of the people here are all NO NEVER to the idea but you would not be if something like that happen to you.

If ShadowsOfTears father lived in canada and was a canadian citizen, it would not matter what hospital he went to. He would off been air lefted out to the next hospital instead of having to be taken by ambulance. He may still have to pay some money on meds but not as much as you would in the USA (Funny how most meds are made in the USA yet canada has them cheaper - wait no its not as we pay a few cents here and there in taxs).

The point of this is to help everyone not just yourself. I hate people that are so self centered and don't care about others.

[Bobofthedead]

Hitman, Shadow, you've got the nail on the head! Why do people wax lyrical about charity, and the goodness of their fellow man, when they are too self-centered to help themselves and their fellow man with their tax dollar?

[hyrule]

Hitman, Shadow, you've got the nail on the head! Why do people wax lyrical about charity, and the goodness of their fellow man, when they are too self-centered to help themselves and their fellow man with their tax dollar?

because tax dollar is mandatory and charity isnt

[david.atwell]

Precisely. I'm the kind of person who is more than ecstatic to give away any money that I have to help someone else. But here's the thing: I WANT TO MAKE THE DECISION. I don't want a government deciding that I get to give my money away to have some alcoholic 1,000 miles away have a liver transplant when I could give it to the family next door whose mother has cancer, so that they can afford to buy food.

And if you're going to say "The government doesn't work that way," you're dreaming. The government that runs the Department of Motor Vehicles is not the kind of government I would consider "competent" to run a dry-cleaning business - and you're asking me to trust them with my charity?

You've got another think coming.

[ShadowsOfTears]

I guess its because a lot of people are to wrapped up in their own world to notice that other people are suffering too. Some people feel that they have so much to deal with, as in the pressures of their own lives, why should the be strapped with someone elses too? I think people forgot that this country was built on the backs of the working American. And that this country is still standing because of said Americans. How would the rich be rich, if they didn't have people working hard for them for the few meager scraps offered to them? So instead of actually caring about these people who more or less do their bidding for them, they say "Don't let the door hit you where the good Lord split you." I suppose the reason for this, is that there are always more people willing to take that job for the same scraps, when the other is finally yelling, "Hey, I deserve better than this. I'm a person too."

Which is of course where unions and OSHA came from. Never mind the fact that these organizations are now figuratively screwing the people they once vowed to protect.

Another thing that really bothers me about people as a whole, is that they're concerned about the way people are living in other countries, Iraq as an example or Dafur. I think its wonderful that people are concerned about people, because its human nature. But they don't even stop to think about other Americans suffering just the same. That children are abandoned to the streets by their parents, that children are being abused, that adults are being abused. That there is homeless people all across this country, people who have a home, but can't afford to feed their families. Or poor schools like the one that I went to, where the students are using books from the 70s so the teachers don't even use them, or worse the teachers DO use them.

Of course we can't expect the government to fix everything for us. We have to have a hand in that is well. But how can someone who makes $8/hr and its barely holding on to what they have, possibly help, at least financially. Sadly, these are the people who try to help, because they know what its like.

I'm sure people are sick of my long spiels by now, but I guess the point of all of it is, "You do for me, and I'll do for you." In this case, the poor have almost always been doing for the rich, but getting very little in return. Why is it such a be deal for richer people, most of whom don't even bat an eye about slapping down 100 grand for a car, or a couple million for their 3rd home, to pay more in taxes? How is it really going to hurt them? So they only have 4 houses instead of 5, or they only have 3 cars instead of 6. Its more than most people have already.

Dave, hospitals generally don't give liver transplants to alcoholics, because you have to be completely free of any drugs, including alcohol before your able to get one, and most would die from the shock to their body. Its considered a wasted liver. Then you could also argue the case, how do you know that the alcoholic hasn't been sober for 10 years, and its now suffering the long term affects? Does said person deserve to loose their life because of past mistakes? Some would say yes, honestly I'm inclined to say yes myself. But it really isn't for me to judge.

[Bobofthedead]

Yes, and if one gives to a charitable organisation, does one have the choice of where the money goes to? Can one send their envelope stuffed with green paper into Save the Whatever with a note on it, "EXPRESS, TO MRS. HIGGINBOTHAM @ NO. 42 ONLY!"? No. the money goes to where the charity chooses. Where's the difference?

[ncfan51]

Precisely. I'm the kind of person who is more than ecstatic to give away any money that I have to help someone else. But here's the thing: I WANT TO MAKE THE DECISION. I don't want a government deciding that I get to give my money away to have some alcoholic 1,000 miles away have a liver transplant when I could give it to the family next door whose mother has cancer, so that they can afford to buy food.

And if you're going to say "The government doesn't work that way," you're dreaming. The government that runs the Department of Motor Vehicles is not the kind of government I would consider "competent" to run a dry-cleaning business - and you're asking me to trust them with my charity?

You've got another think coming.

I assure you that the large majority of these people aren't alcoholics, or "lazy hicks". They are just victims of the circumstances. Yes, there is always one who abuses the system and doesn't deserve it, but the ratio of the former to the latter is likely hundreds to one.

[startreksuite]

speaking of health care, I myself am not lazy, and definitely not an alcoholic. I can't get family care because it would eat half of my monthly salary. I am a teacher at a small school. Most women in my field are asked to come back after three months of giving birth, just to keep their job! Are they lazy if they want to stay home? (I almost chose the health care over a raise, but figured the extra pay would help this time of year, and can probably work something out until after my son is born :?

[ShadowsOfTears]

speaking of health care, I myself am not lazy, and definitely not an alcoholic. I can't get family care because it would eat half of my monthly salary. I am a teacher at a small school. Most women in my field are asked to come back after three months of giving birth, just to keep their job! Are they lazy if they want to stay home? (I almost chose the health care over a raise, but figured the extra pay would help this time of year, and can probably work something out until after my son is born :?

What we have here, is pretty much the story of almost every average "middle class" person. The people who need help the most, people who aren't getting it, because they're just that. Middle class. The rich don't need help, and the poor get it most of the time already. And that's why people voted for Obama, because he gave hope to the middle class people, that changes would be made to benefit them. Not the very rich, or the very poor. Although in most cases, changes for the middle class generally benefit the poor as well, since its done in income brackets. Below so much a year and blah blah. I don't know about other states, but in Ohio, if you make 15,600 or less a year, you are now considered 150% below the poverty level.

Startreksuite, I wish you good luck and I hope everything turns out well for you. And congrats on your son.

[startreksuite]

Shadow of Tears, thanks, and I have enjoyed reading your posts, glad someone else is on the same page as me. About 15 years ago, when I was living at home with my family, I probably didn't think differently than some of the posters, because I thought I could be fine if I just worked hard. Not all of us are cut out for the business world, but with hard work should be health coverage for all. I made a trip to Canada a few years back, my wife was motion sick and the airport gave her a shot of gravol for it, free of charge!

[david.atwell]

Yes, and if one gives to a charitable organisation, does one have the choice of where the money goes to? Can one send their envelope stuffed with green paper into Save the Whatever with a note on it, "EXPRESS, TO MRS. HIGGINBOTHAM @ NO. 42 ONLY!"? No. the money goes to where the charity chooses. Where's the difference?

But at least I get to choose which charity. The money won't go to the Save The Spotted Owl society if I address the check to the American Red Cross.

Or, more likely, if I address the check to Mrs. Higginbotham directly and just hand it to her.

Or, even better, if I address the check to the grocery store, buy groceries for her, and then hand them to her on her doorstep.

For the love of...well, people!...I just want a choice.

[ShadowsOfTears]

I guess that would be nice Dave, I'm sure all of us would like to do that. But it also comes down to, we pay taxes for more things that just health care coverage. For instance roads, and education, to name a few. But from what I understand, the only thing that would be mandatory, is that children are covered. What's so wrong with that? Nothing, all children should be given free health care, unless its available at a reasonable price to the parents. All that does is secure our future. As its explained, people would be able to keep the provider that they already have. Obama's interest is in reduce the premiums so its more affordable. Trying to get rid of preexisting condition clauses. None of that is bad.

I think that if you feel that you want to give charity, you should give to charity, its not like you don't get it back at the end of the year if you file it anyway. If you feel the need to buy groceries for you neighbor, do it. If you manage your money correctly, you can get a decent amount of food. I've done it.

I guess we could argue this point to death and probably already have. People have been paying for poor people's health care coverage for years, and its no different now. Honestly, some of those people have such low paying jobs, that they themselves are paying for their own health care. Its not like they stop taking taxes out of your paychecks if you're receiving government assistance.

You also have to look at the cost of living in the areas that some people live. A lot of times the pay for jobs doesn't match the cost of living. Here its fairly inexpensive, my total bills without things like diapers and other basic household needs is only around 700 a month. The only thing that I have that I don't really need is phone and internet. No satellite or cable. But the problem comes in, when you're grossing 300 dollars a week, and 50 is going in taxes. So, that's a gross of 1200, and roughly 1000 after taxes. That leaves roughly 300 a month for other household needs, and emergency cash, plus whatever I have to buy in food during the month to supplement my food stamps. What does that leave me with? Not much. Now imagine if out of that, I was having to pay for my daughter's health care as well. That would be an additional 80, a week out of my boyfriend's paycheck, which is the cost of health care for a family at his work. Giving us just 170 a week, 680 a month, which doesn't even cover our bills.

So Dave, I guess you should be happy knowing, that while you may not get to choose who you give your money to, you're helping my daughter get the health care that she needs when she's sick, and you made sure she got her x-ray and cast when she broke her arm a couple months ago. Thanks

[HITMAN-X-]

Dave you say you want a choise. Well Dave Canada only gives one question with 2 choises. Help or don't help.

For the people who don't help, well Canada don't want you as the people don't need you.

Also who gave you the idea that we give alcoholics liver transplants. Any alcoholic that needs a liver better find someone willing to give them theirs as we don't put people like that on the donor list because they are alcoholics.

Taking and not giving is wrong.

Wait let me get this right. You want the goverment to give you a min by min report on every person that comes into a hospital so you can pick who you will help live or who you will help die ?, What are you God, I am sorry Dave but that sounds inhuman to me.

I know my tax's are helping people that should not be helped. But I also know that they are helping people that need it most. There for I don't care as I know I am doing what is right, everyone should get the same kind of help no matter who they are. Dave we are all looked at as bad people by someone no matter what you think.

I been to the hospital 3 times in my 20 years of life. 2 of which were major problems. The 1st time I was 10 and was about to lose my right eye. Thanks to Canada health care, I never. The 2nd time, I was 17 and had a blood colt and found out I have a blood disorder that causes blood colts. 3 months and some many weeks of having to get blood taken away from me everyday, plus my shots to the gut, and the meds. If I was in the USA, it would of costed me $100,000 and insurance would off rejected me for having a rare blood disorder that can cause clots and lead to death at anytime. 3rd time I was on my way to College, I was 19. The side walks were very icey and I fell and did some damage to my hand and had cuts all over it from the salt on the road.

Tell me should you choise if I get health care or not. Hold up if we let people pick then the greedy rich people will say, no to me just because I am a health issuse were I have a disorder that may need treatment down the road.

You pay for a cup of coffee and you don't even see the 2 cents you paid in tax.

charity is just that charity. This is not charity and if you think it is then your missed informed.

The government that runs the Department of Motor Vehicles is not the kind of government I would consider "competent" to run a dry-cleaning business

LOL no goverment will pick a business that wont work. They know things like alcohol and oil work. Then they will hire people that live here to work there. Then use the money to help everone living here. Geez Dave that sounds so bad, I guess it better to not get involed and let companys rip off your own people by out sorucing and not giving anything back to its people.

Guess it nice to just crash and burn.

Really tell me why your old system is better then a system being taken in almost everywere else.

If there spelling errors, then sorry but I am not home right now and I don't got time to re-read it as I am being told that I need to get off the computer in this room so the person can go to bed.

[david.atwell]

Also who gave you the idea that we give alcoholics liver transplants. Any alcoholic that needs a liver better find someone willing to give them theirs as we don't put people like that on the donor list because they are alcoholics.

It was an extreme example used to make a point.

Wait let me get this right. You want the goverment to give you a min by min report on every person that comes into a hospital so you can pick who you will help live or who you will help die ?, What are you God, I am sorry Dave but that sounds inhuman to me.

No, I do not. I want the freedom to be able to give to the people in my life that I love so that their quality of life can improve. Not because I don't care about people on the other side of the nation, but because the people on the other side of the street are the ones I look in the eyes of on a day-to-day basis. They're the ones in my life, and they're the ones I want to help. I don't just want to tell the government what to do with my money, I want to keep my money so that I can do what I will with it.

Really tell me why your old system is better then a system being taken in almost everywere else.

Simply thus: in the current system, I can choose who to give my money to. I have that freedom. In socialized health care (which I don't think is being "taken in almost everywhere else," as you say), the government has stolen that freedom from me by demanding that I give them money I would otherwise have given.

[Sozo]

Wait let me get this right. You want the goverment to give you a min by min report on every person that comes into a hospital so you can pick who you will help live or who you will help die ?, What are you God, I am sorry Dave but that sounds inhuman to me.

No, I do not. I want the freedom to be able to give to the people in my life that I love so that their quality of life can improve. Not because I don't care about people on the other side of the nation, but because the people on the other side of the street are the ones I look in the eyes of on a day-to-day basis. They're the ones in my life, and they're the ones I want to help. I don't just want to tell the government what to do with my money, I want to keep my money so that I can do what I will with it.

This is precisely the point I would make. The point is not that we want to decide who the government gives our money away to, it's that we don't want the government to take our money. No, this isn't an inhuman notion. I don't want to be supporting some alcoholic across the country with my hard earned money. Yes I know...

I assure you that the large majority of these people aren't alcoholics, or "lazy hicks".

Well, who else would need the support? The hard workers?

I made a trip to Canada a few years back, my wife was motion sick and the airport gave her a shot of gravol for it, free of charge!

That's just a considerate airport doing their job right, not a reason to convert to demi-socialism.

LOL no goverment will pick a business that wont work. They know things like alcohol and oil work. Then they will hire people that live here to work there. Then use the money to help everone living here. Geez Dave that sounds so bad, I guess it better to not get involed and let companys rip off your own people by out sorucing and not giving anything back to its people.

Guess it nice to just crash and burn.

Really tell me why your old system is better then a system being taken in almost everywere else.

I saw a great demotivational poster that said: "Government, if you think our problems are bad, wait till you see our solutions." This sums it up. The government is not fit rule control everything, there is no efficient way. Like in my home state Virginia: Our Department of Motor Vehicles has a budget of over 1 Billion dollars, yet nearly nothing gets done, and our roads are still crappy.

And what's the difference between America and everywhere else? Oh yeah, we're the biggest and best.

[Crazy Man Dan]

I don't just want to tell the government what to do with my money, I want to keep my money so that I can do what I will with it.

The point is not that we want to decide who the government gives our money away to, it's that we don't want the government to take our money.

Um... Are you proposing the abolishment of the tax system altogether...? Perhaps I'm assuming too much, but no student I know is making over a quarter-mil a year. I know I sure as heck aren't.

Under Obama's plan, most people's taxes aren't going to go up at all, so odds are you'll still have that money to give to the people on your street should you choose to do so. This health care will be funded by reallocating the taxes most people already pay, plus the extra generated by allowing the Bush tax cuts of 4% for the top 2.5% to expire.

Also - I haven't read the thing myself, but from what the people are saying - under Obama's plan, even if you do make over a quarter-mil, only the income above the $250,000 mark gets taxed at the graduated rate, so you're not paying an extra .04 of your entire income, but on the net amount above $250K.

Basically, under Clinton, the top income tax bracket was 39%, and Bush temporarily cut it to 35% during his term. Those tax-cuts are expiring anyway, Obama just doesn't plan to renew them. So, did anyone here go broke while Clinton was in office?

This is all just devolving into grandstanding and bellicose examples of extreme improbability. It boils down to this:

It's not socialism

Seriously, just stop it already! That was just one of the many inane talking points the McCampaign figured it'd try throughout it's vomitous, spewing sewer of a run.

We already pay taxes. That system already has graduated tax brackets. Our government provides us with basic services, funded by these tax dollars, such as grade schools and roads and emergency response departments. Obama just wants to add another service, and his main method of financing it will be putting the taxes back where they were before Bush decided to monkey with them.

Yes, everyone loves tax breaks - I get it. And there will be backlash any time somebody wants to take more of your money - I understand. I think the most telling thing, though, is something I read in an article comparing the Obama and McCain tax plans. In the column that details how this will impact the federal budget, it had this to say:

Obama: Returns $700 billion. McCain: Costs $600 billion.

With as deep as we are in debt to other countries right now, how in the blue suede shoes could we possibly afford to cut taxes for ever'body as McCain wants? And a spending freeze? I only ever took one economics class - I didn't like it - but econ101 says that when you stop the flow of cash, your economy stagnates. We are already coasting - cutting the engine completely would be silly.

Look at it like this - the wealthy have had a nice tax break for the better part of a decade, and now we're in the crapper. We have to get out of it somehow, and it ain't gonna be pretty, but this is less of a "Hike your taxes, you wealthy lummox!" plan, and more of a "Let's put things back to where they were when we weren't drowning" plan.

I hesitate to enter into this debate, because I know I don't know everything, and I don't have all the facts to defend my views on this as well as I'd like, but this bickering isn't getting us anywhere. What's more - these are just PLANS! They haven't been passed, they haven't even been formally proposed yet. If you're against them make yourself heard SOMEWHERE WHERE IT ACTUALLY MAKES A DIFFERENCE. Call your representatives, write them, make funny faces at them, something OTHER than bickering about wanting the government to GTFO* of your money pockets on a graphic application message board. It's not really helping anyone.

Congrats Barack Obama. You are our next president, and I wish you well. With as screwed up as things are as you take over and the inane amount of hype built up over your campaign, I know no matter what you do you will never be able to live up to your spectre, but the best of luck to you.

*GTFO = Get Their Fingers Out here. 'Cuz, you know, I dun't swears.

[Sozo]

Look, I'm not arguing that Obama's a communist out to tax me to death. This whole argument has degraded into a socialism argument thread.

[HITMAN-X-]

And what's the difference between America and everywhere else? Oh yeah, we're the biggest and best.

LOL LOL LOL LOL, I only just got up and now you put me awake with that joke. That one of the reasons you get problems is because a lot of your people assume that your the best in the world. Maybe its time to open your eyes and take a good look around. Btw what place in the world is bankrupt ?

All I been saying is that this change is going to help you not break you.

Also while your taking a better look at the world, take a look at your health care system being ranked number 23 in the world with the most new born deaths.

I am done with this topic. I can only say that I hope notthing bad ever happens to you that would make you see that what goes around comes around.

[david.atwell]

@Dan- I think you missed when the argument I made - "Obama's plan is close to socialism, and could become so when taken to extremes" (I don't think I actually said it verbatim) - devolved into a debate about socialism. I'm still not sure that's the best way to do what we're trying to do, but yes, I agree, Obama's plan is much better than socialism would be.

@Sozo- Biggest, yes. Best is debatable. We certainly have solved problems that other nations still struggle with, but I don't think that we have no areas in which we can improve or learn from other countries. I have no problem with patriotism - I love my country a lot - but I'm not sure that asserting our "best"-ness indiscriminately is patriotism so much as jingoism. :-) I tend to stick with facts - we have the strongest armed forces in the world, we have one of the most open system of free speech in the world, we have Paint.NET's creator... :-P Those are the elements in which we are the best. But indiscriminately asserting our "best"-ness is probably not the best policy on the world stage. Explain why and in what area we are the best.

Oh, and to me, we are the best. No worries. :-)

@HITMAN- Our health care system is one of the best and fastest in the world. I don't know who is doing the rating that you're looking at, but I can tell you that my mother would not have been diagnosed yet if she lived in another country - and if she hadn't been diagnosed early, her stage-0 breast cancer would have advanced. And I don't know if she'd have a 2% chance of recurrence right now. It would probably be greater. I love my mother, and I'm very happy that she lives in the United States. Want to insult the U.S.? There's plenty of shots you can take at us. I don't think our health care system is one of them. But by making a comment like that, you're guilty of the same jingoism you mock.

[MattBlackLamb]

David, would your mother have got the treatment she needed if both she & your dad were both working flat-out just to pay rent, bills & buy food?

[david.atwell]

Yes, because we have health insurance. But I see the catch-22 you're proposing here - get the treatment in a timely manner, or be able to afford the treatment? But health insurance is what collapses that waveform. It's not a perfect setup, but it works.