Windows 7, Ribbon Crazy?

[Zwicky]

Here are a few screenshots from Windows 7 build 6780. It seems that the developers have found the Office 07 ribbon design successful enough to implement it entirely into the operating system... at this stage anyway. Take a look. :?

Microsoft Paint

and

Wordpad

I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing. But if ribbons become the GUI standard for Windows, Paint.Net should eventually include one. We're talking v5 onwards here though i think so it's nothing to worry about for now.

I know Rick isnt too keen on the whole Ribbon idea, but hey, theres 2-3 years for any decisions to be made, so theres no hurry. What do u guys think about it all?

[usedHONDA]

Well, I'm indifferent about the Ribbon UI. It has an edge to it for the fact that it makes use of available real estate, but it isn't the best UI for all programs. The WordPad one you linked to looks pretty neat; it looks like a $15 trialware program. However, the new Paint doesn't strike me as beautiful. Better, yes, but I much prefer the UI of Paint.NET. I agree with Rick when he says that Ribbon isn't for PDN. I'd rather see something a little more on the crazy side happen to both Win7 and PDN. Humanity.

A quick excerpt from a blog post that I'd recommend any programmer to read:

OpenOffice.org is a free replacement for Microsoft Office. GIMP is a free replacement for Adobe Photoshop. Many high-profile OSS apps get started because there’s a need for a free version of some popular closed-source app. You might think that if you’re writing one of these, your UI design has already been done for you. You might think you can just copy the basic design of the closed-source app, make a few improvements, and be done. But you’d be wrong.

I’ve already described the frustration I felt upon my first encounter with the OpenOffice interface.

“Stop whining”, you might say. “OpenOffice isn’t any worse that Microsoft Office, just different. Make an effort to learn it, and you’ll find that it’s just as good.”

...

Chasing after the GUI of a closed-source program is a thankless task anyway. Out of all the new users who try your software for the first time, some are familiar with the proprietary equivalent and some aren’t. A habitual Photoshop user has habits formed from years of using Photoshop. GIMP looks just similar enough that the Photoshop user is going to try to use some keyboard shortcut or other trick that he knows, and it’s going to fail because GIMP works differently, and the user is going to get annoyed at GIMP. Ironically, the closer GIMP gets to Photoshop, the more Photoshop users will expect it behave identically, and the more frustrated they will be at the small remaining differences.

Meanwhile, users who (like me) have never used Photoshop, and who come to GIMP without expectations, wonder why it’s so complicated. What do the icons mean in all of these floating panels? What’s the difference between a “selection” and a “path”? I suspect that some of these things might be features added to satisfy the Photoshop fans, but they don’t mean anything to me. I just want to take a doodle that I scanned in, erase some stray lines, add a caption, shrink it, and save it as a .jpg file for use on my website. I don’t know how to do this, and the GIMP UI doesn’t give me any clues.

Trying to duplicate the GUI of your closed-source equivalent won’t satisfy users of that other program and it won’t help newbies like me. It’s a fool’s errand.

[Zwicky]

Yes i do like the GUI of Paint.NET as it as at the moment, but if future Windows releases replace the floating toolbar idea totally, and uses a Ribbon for the entire thing, then we may have to change, to go with the flow, as it were, as the the status quo changes... and that may not be so good. :?

[Myrddin]

Zwicky, if people are still using command-based applications from the 'dawn' of the computing age, then it shouldn't matter how much the GUI status quo shifts forward, people will still use PDN's menu bar and floating windows in the future.

People are reasonably happy with what we have now, I doubt Rick will fight against that just to 'go with the flow'. As we all know, Rick has more integrity about him.

[Sozo]

I can't foresee Rick changing PdN's menu in the near future (read: years to come). He's the type of person who won't waste time and work on minimal results.

I for one like Paint.NET's menus the way they are.

[Zwicky]

Zwicky, if people are still using command-based applications from the 'dawn' of the computing age, then it shouldn't matter how much the GUI status quo shifts forward, people will still use PDN's menu bar and floating windows in the future.

when u put it like that i seem so silly, lol yes you are right. I suppose its not particuarlly wise to try and foretell the future of any technology, whether it be software or other stuff. We will see what happens

[david.atwell]

Besides, let's think about what came before the "Ribbon:" The toolbar. The lowly toolbar...created in 1973.

Thirty-five years old? The RibbonUI is one year old. Let's not toss out the tried-and-true toolbar yet- especially since we're pretty sure that the Ribbon doesn't need to be on Paint.NET just yet.

[usedHONDA]

Frankly, a Ribbon UI would end up only making things both buggier and less efficient. I'd much rather see Rick keep it the way it is, and (I just want to throw in a random suggestion) a sleek command line-like system for more advanced users (i.e, press Shift and Space to bring up, then type something like "effect sharpen 15" to get what you want, faster).

[david.atwell]

I like. :-) Sounds snazzy.

[bEPIK]

How about merging parts of the toolbar to make PDN slimmer?

'Menu' Would have the other menus inside of it (except for adjustments and effects). And there could be an option where you could put your most used menus next to 'menu' for quicker access.

[Zwicky]

@usedHONDA - That would be soo cool.... :shock: .

@brad.pike - i think there could be better ways to do the same thing in that situation, merging it all together like would basically make a ribbon, but not quite.

[bEPIK]

Not all of them, only the top two.

[Goonfella]

If it `aint broke don`t fix it I say.

Just because Windows changes don`t mean PDN should too.

[Zwicky]

If it `aint broke don`t fix it I say.

Just because Windows changes don`t mean PDN should too.

...

Nothing's broken with Paint.NET at the moment, but theres no way we're makin this final version full stop. But Paint.NET is going to be constantly improved on, and this discussion is whether a Ribbon is a step forward or 3 steps back

As it happens the majority believe it's not a good idea.

I see what you mean however, it's just the saying that gets me :wink:

[aeonix]

I have a feeling Paint.NET will become independent of the .NET framework, and be OFFICIALLY ported to Mac and Linux first.

[Mike Ryan]

Nooo! Paint.NET minus .NET makes Paint, and we all know Paint is a failure :?

[Zwicky]

^Definitely.

As much as many of us want Paint.NET to be ported to mac, I'm not sure if that will happen.

[Sozo]

Frankly, a Ribbon UI would end up only making things both buggier and less efficient. I'd much rather see Rick keep it the way it is, and (I just want to throw in a random suggestion) a sleek command line-like system for more advanced users (i.e, press Shift and Space to bring up, then type something like "effect sharpen 15" to get what you want, faster).

You mean like Launchy?

[Goonfella]

I did not mean PDN should stand still. There is always room for improvement but if so many people dislike the ribbon why use it?

[BoltBait]

if so many people dislike the ribbon why use it?

If you want to use MS Word, there is no choice. You can't turn the damn thing off. :evil:

[usedHONDA]

... sleek command line-like system ... press Shift and Space to bring up, then type something like "effect sharpen 15"...

You mean like Launchy?

I was aiming at something more like Enso (faster, less rough, no distracting eye-candy).

[Dalton]

Anyway, I hope they don't use those "ribbons" anymore than that. It looks confusing.

[Andrew D]

if so many people dislike the ribbon why use it?

If you want to use MS Word, there is no choice. You can't turn the damn thing off. :evil:

That's why Notepad was invented

[BoltBait]

if so many people dislike the ribbon why use it?

If you want to use MS Word, there is no choice. You can't turn the damn thing off. :evil:

That's why Notepad was invented

Oh, I'm sure Notepad in Windows 7 will have that evil ribbon...

[HITMAN-X-]

Anyway, I hope they don't use those "ribbons" anymore than that. It looks confusing.

Thats right, looks confusing. I did Office 2003 back 2 years ago in College. I am now sitting in on Office 2007. For the 1st week it was like what am I doing. Now its like wow this is so easy to understand. I can find things faster in ribbon format compared to the old office style.