Transparent background disappearing?

[Red ochre]

Happy New Year HyRez - no better training than E.E.R's Documentation (F1 while in Pdn) in my opinion but always useful to see other interpretations... but if they are happy to promote stolen virus infected sites they might not be the best teachers???

 

Yes my Commodore 64 still works! ... but too much work to flip out the low res and write fun stuff.

[HyReZ]

42 minutes ago, WillT said:

Yeah there must be a fix as the ones I have from other places that do work,(like the ? a few post above), don't do that.  And I shrunk it down to 16X16 and it is still very obvious.  This snip below is 16X16.

Because of anti-aliasing in both the text and the sign; when the text and sign are flattened into the magenta background, the feathering around those images are  merged into tints and shades of magenta, and therefore have a different color value and are not blocked as is the transparency value. It is a good idea to turn off anti-aliasing when making your image.

[HyReZ]

1 hour ago, Red ochre said:

Happy New Year HyRez - no better training than E.E.R's Documentation (F1 while in Pdn) in my opinion but always useful to see other interpretations... but if they are happy to promote stolen virus infected sites they might not be the best teachers???

 

Yes my Commodore 64 still works! ... but too much work to flip out the low res and write fun stuff.

I went to the Stark Training Zone looking for the links to Paint.NET Megalo Effects Plugin-Pack. None of the links currently work and I could not find working links to the effects pack anywhere. For myself; video tutorials are the best learning tools. I don't know if the people at Stark are happy or are aware of problems of five years ago, but here we are.

BTW:
I still have my C64 and have not written code for it, or any other computer since 1989.

Edited December 31, 2018 by HyReZ

[WillT]

1 hour ago, HyReZ said:

Because of anti-aliasing in both the text and the sign; when the text and sign are flattened into the magenta background, the feathering around those images are  merged into tints and shades of magenta, and therefore have a different color value and are not blocked as is the transparency value. It is a good idea to turn off anti-aliasing when making your image.

 

I have been reading the help files, tutorials, etc. and not really getting anywhere on this specific problem.  I am leaning a LOT about PDN that I will probably never need since really all I am trying to do is this one procedure.  But I can not figure out how to make less of the magenta bleed around the symbols I am using.  I thought maybe your suggestion to turn off anti aliasing would be an easy solution if it worked.  The only place to do that I can find is in the selection clipping mode drop-down.  So I changed it to pixelated but it really did not make much of a difference at all.  Just for testing, I used a 256X256 .bmp of the same symbol and it looks great.  Way too huge, but perfect.  Once that image is reduced to 32x32 it bleeds the magenta like crazy.  Frustrating.

[IHaveNoName]

1 hour ago, WillT said:

That is a foreign language to me.  I have no idea what you mean but that may be the real problem, my lack of knowledge. I just read a couple of Google links to aliased edges so I understand it a little.  A couple of things here on this forum talk about aliased vs anti aliased and discuss how the 2nd layer is filled.  I did not really follow it though.  Could it be the way I filled the magenta layer with the bucket set to global? 

 

I've no idea what Alpha Blending means or how you enable it in PDN either. However I think that I can explain what the problem is with the magenta outline of the icon.

 

Anyway the problem is 'simply' that the edges of the black icon are neither magenta (FF00FF) or black (000000). They're made up of partially transparent pixels which apparently means the software concerned doesn't see them as pure magenta and convert them to full transparency as wanted. It sees them as colour, a shade of magenta and displays it accordingly.

 

You can see this if you open the 32x32 image in PDN and just use the magnify option. As you magnify the tiny icon you'll see those nice sharp edges are actually raggedy and I think that is why you're getting the magenta coloured outline.

 

If I've understood correctly the object of the advice being provided here is to find a way of blending down the black icon with the magenta background to reduce that raggedness so that you have just a pure black icon on a pure magenta background and no intermediate tones.

 

That suggested a crude solution to me which may work if no other advice proves suitable: create the icon/symbol itself at 32x32 and build it from single, solid black pixels. You'd need to work at 1000%+ magnification but in theory it should give you the fully transparent background you want if the shapes used are simple with straight lines.

[toe_head2001]

1 minute ago, WillT said:

Once that image is reduced to 32x32 it bleeds the magenta like crazy.

 

When the image is resampled to a smaller size, some blending occurs. It's recommended to create the image at the desired size, rather than resizing it after the fact.

[IHaveNoName]

That's what I just suggested too.

[WillT]

2 minutes ago, IHaveNoName said:

That suggested a crude solution to me which may work if no other advice proves suitable: create the icon/symbol itself at 32x32 and build it from single, solid black pixels. You'd need to work at 1000%+ magnification but in theory it should give you the fully transparent background you want if the shapes used are simple with straight lines.

Thanks - That may indeed work for this symbol but many of the symbols are more complex in nature and design.  Most of the 8 or 10 symbols I want to add to my maps are from free downloads, either websites or from people I have communicated with on other non graphic and non mappin sites.  I just use what is available and am trying to make them work with the Garmin products.  I am so close it is frustrating.  I have it working except for this last edges part.

[WillT]

28 minutes ago, toe_head2001 said:

 

When the image is resampled to a smaller size, some blending occurs. It's recommended to create the image at the desired size, rather than resizing it after the fact.

 

On this particular sign post, I just tried that as they have both a 16x16 and 32x32 png version available. So I got the 16x16 and opened it in PDN.  Then with "Selection Clipping Mode" set to pixelated, I added the magenta layer.  Then saved as a flattened .bmp into the Garmin folder.  BaseCamp map uses it fine, but it looks exactly the same as the one I made reducing from 256x256 to 16x16.  So starting with an already small image and skipping the reducing step did not matter.

Edited December 31, 2018 by WillT

[HyReZ]

If your symbols are going to be one color and a background: I would use BlackandAlpha+.dll by dpy, that will be found under the Adjustments Tab after installation. It will delete the non-black colors and leave you with only black and transparency on that layer.Your solid magenta will be on the other layer, allowing for merger of only black and magenta.

Edited December 31, 2018 by HyReZ

[toe_head2001]

So maybe your source material already has anti-aliased edge. Can you post your source image, so you can verify that?

 

2 minutes ago, WillT said:

Then with "Selection Clipping Mode" set to pixelated

 

The "Selection Clipping Mode" won't do anything for you here, as it only affects selection operations.

[WillT]

4 minutes ago, toe_head2001 said:

The "Selection Clipping Mode" won't do anything for you here, as it only affects selection operations.

I thought the same, but I could not find anywhere else to follow the instructed suggestion of turning anti aliasing off.  Where in PDN is that?

On edit:  Sorry, finally found it.  Missed the tiny squiggly menu item.

Edited December 31, 2018 by WillT

[WillT]

12 minutes ago, toe_head2001 said:

So maybe your source material already has anti-aliased edge. Can you post your source image, so you can verify that?

 

I just repeated the process with anti aliasing turned off as in the snippet below.  It made no difference to the final version.  Attached is the original 256X256 version of the file I started with.

 

 

[HyReZ]

🙂

 

Edited March 10, 2020 by HyReZ

[WillT]

Thanks I found it finally with the results posted right above.  It made no difference to the final image quality.  I am just now installing the plugin you suggested to try that.

[toe_head2001]

8 minutes ago, WillT said:

I just repeated the process with anti aliasing turned off as in the snippet below.  It made no difference to the final version.

 

That anti-aliasing option only applies to new things that you draw. I has no affect on existing shapes/objects.

 

9 minutes ago, WillT said:

Attached is the original 256X256 version of the file I started with. 

 

Yes, your original source image already has anti-aliased edges.

It seems maybe you don't understand what anti-aliasing is. Here is an image that demonstrates the concept:

The top arrow has anti-aliased edges.

The bottom arrow had aliased edges.

[HyReZ]

If the image is already anit-aliased, disabling the feature will not remove it. It only works on the creation of lines, curves, and shapes.

[WillT]

Ha!  You are right, there is a lot I don't understand but slowly getting there I think,  Interesting because in that example you posted, it looks to the uninformed eye that the top image that IS anti-aliased would work best to avoid the bleeding?

Edited December 31, 2018 by WillT

[WillT]

2 minutes ago, HyReZ said:

If the image is already anit-aliased, disabling the feature will not remove it. It only works on the creation of lines, curves, and shapes.

Makes sense.  Will the plugin you suggested still work even if the original image is anti-aliased?

[HyReZ]

It is called being baptized by total immersion! 🙂

Edited December 31, 2018 by HyReZ

[toe_head2001]

4 minutes ago, WillT said:

Interesting because in that example you posted, it looks to the uninformed eye that the top image that IS anti-aliased would work best?

 

Yes, anti-aliasing does usually look better. However in this case, your Garmin device doesn't support the semi-transparent edges that are used to achieve anti-aliasing.

[HyReZ]

1 minute ago, WillT said:

Makes sense.  Will the plugin you suggested still work even if the original image is anti-aliased?

It will leave you with a 2 bit image of black and alpha. It should do the trick.

 

[WillT]

7 minutes ago, HyReZ said:

It is called being baptized by total immersion! 🙂

Yeah. And what I want to do, just making a few custom symbols to use in my maps seemed like it would be so easy!!

 

1 minute ago, HyReZ said:

It will leave you with a 2 bit image of black and alpha. It should do the trick.

 

Thanks!  Got it installed and will try it.

 

5 minutes ago, toe_head2001 said:

 

Yes, anti-aliasing does usually look better. However in this case, your Garmin device doesn't support the semi-transparent edges that are used to achieve anti-aliasing.

Makes sense.  Thanks.

[WillT]

10 minutes ago, HyReZ said:

It will leave you with a 2 bit image of black and alpha.

 

 

So I have the image done and when choosing the plugin it gives me this popup window.  But I don't have a clue as to what I should have the sliders at unless it is just the same as when I create the 2nd layer, 255,0,255

Edited December 31, 2018 by WillT

[HyReZ]

Leave it as it is.

I did forgot that alpha is 8 bits in gray-scale so you may need one more step.

To adjust contrast after you do the Black and alpha.