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Rick Brewster

paint.net 4.0.10 is now available!

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This side scrolling thing is great, but it is really annoying that the image doesn't stay centered whenever I zoom in or out. I hope you fix this really soon or give us the option to disable this extra scrolling.

*edit* Saw you already said you'll fix this. Just wanted to compliment you on an otherwise awesome program, which I use all the time!

Edited by Barbes
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I love this software, and having been using it since it was first released (As a software developer I have worked with .Net since beta in early 2000 ... this was one of the first great examples of what you can do).

 

I apologize that I have not read this entire thread.  I do see others mentioning this, but I am just going to add how glaringly noticeable (in a bad way) this odd new scrolling feature is.

 

No feature has ever irritated me in a Paint.Net update as much as this one.

 

It involves one or both of the following changes:

  • New: The canvas may now be scrolled past the edge of the image
  • Improved: The rate of auto-scrolling, which triggers when the mouse is at the canvas edge and a button is being held down, has been improved and is based on time instead of frames
I don't know which one of these is responsible, but it now feels so completely unintuitive to maneuver around an image, because it doesn't "stop" at the edges like it used to.
 
I am not sure exactly how I am noticing it so much.  I think it may be that tools such as the Lasso tool now allow you to pull it off of the actual canvas and then it will start scrolling into the "outside the image" space if you continue off-screen, instead of stopping.
 
I don't see a point to this, as we don't have layers with x/y coordinates that can be outside of the sublayer boundaries.  Meaning a layer "above and next to" the lower layer.
 
It's hard to explain, but I noticed it immediately, which led me to the patch notes, which led me to this comment.
 
I'm not sure why you are able to zoom so far out on an image while it is still now showing scrollbars?
 
I can zoom out of a large image to the point where it is 10x10 pixels wide on my screen, but the horizontal scrollbar and vertical scrollbar are showing padding?   Where can I scroll to if the entire image is in view and taking up only 100 pixels on a 1920 x 1080 monitor?
 
Odd how this is the second software question I had to ask today, after Google decided that the backspace key is no longer valid to go "back" in the Chrome browser!
 
I find both of these very unnatural, but the Paint.Net one seems like a bug.   With Chrome, they are just digging in their heels I guess because it causes people form data loss.
 
At the very least, give us a configuration option (Google seems to giving a big "nope" to that one, but they are trying to force a major new standard for browsers).
 
Anyway, this is odd to me:
 
post-50949-0-32394600-1469361693_thumb.p
Edited by EternalNY1

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Google decided that the backspace key is no longer valid to go "back" in the Chrome browser!

Wow, that sucks! I use that all the time. :(

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Backspace in Chrome works fine here

You haven't updated yet. Check your Chrome about box.

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I personally don't need the 'overscroll', but under normal circumstances it shouldn't be a problem. However, Paint.net's behavior at 100% image view is uncontrollable.

 

EXAMPLE: I am creating some text near the lower right corner of a 1800x1000 image. As I get near the right edge, with my text, the image jumps all over the place! Very frustrating. :/ 

 

I could get used to the scroll bars going well beyond the edges of the image, but can this behavior I just described be fixed? Or can I back up and reinstall the version before this feature was implemented?

 

I love Paint.net and have used no other for several years! :)

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Backspace in Chrome works fine here

 

You aren't running the latest Chrome.  Believe it or not, the Chromium issue tracker shows this "feature" initially proposed in 2012, and the last comment is 4 hours ago.

 

You can see more of the fun over here.

 

Anyway, anything about what I was actually commenting about?  

 

I had this frustration again today.  The lasso tool has become essentially unusable in many cases.

 

There are often complex images where I need to select out a certain portion.  I used to be able to start this process by making a rough outline of the area to be cut out, and then invert it and delete it.

 

Let's say the portion of the image I wanted to remove happens to be in the upper-right side, but is too complex to use the magic wand on.

 

I would lasso around it, starting at one corner and swinging around to the other.

 

This is impossible now, as a quick wrap-around an image, if the lasso hits the edge of the screen, will now quickly scroll into oblivion, leaving me staring at a sea of gray.  I know I can recenter with a keyboard shortcut but I am lost as to why this is now necessary.

 

It actually shows more gray blank canvas area than it does image, and to make it worse, it won't even keep the selected area as the "stop point".  So where my image was, I now have a mostly gray screen (a part of it may be over somewhere in the corner), and I can't even see the full section what I just selected (where I would have if it didn't scroll).

 

I'm not even sure why this new feature exists?   What problem was this trying to solve?

 

It's a great piece of software, but as a developer, I'd revert this, push a build, add a configuration option, and send out another update.

Edited by EternalNY1

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I'm not even sure why this new feature exists?   What problem was this trying to solve?

 

Overscroll has been a much anticipated/requested feature for a number of years. A great many users (myself included) feel it is a wonderful feature.

 

I'm not unsympathetic to your problem. I myself asked Rick if an image could have a 'neutral' corridor around the edge where scrolling did not occur.

 

The workaround, I guess, is to be more precise? (I'm joking - see :mrgreen:)

 

More helpfully - why not scroll the image to it's full extent away from the target corner. Then when you go off with the Lasso Tool the image won't scroll at all.

 

The maximum extend an image can be scrolled is determined by the view size. Small images can be scrolled until half offscreen. Larger view sizes scroll an image until the edge meets the center of the editing window. See http://www.getpaint.net/doc/latest/ViewTools.html

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BETTER YET - Since their might be someone, somewhere, that actually would use such a weird feature, please add a user option to turn it on or off. Otherwise, get rid of it.

Edited by KetchupKid

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Overscroll has been a much anticipated/requested feature for a number of years. A great many users (myself included) feel it is a wonderful feature.

 

Can you explain why this been requested so much?  That's not a joke, I honestly don't understand the purpose.

 

I have been using this software almost every day since 2004.

 

However, I am not a graphics designer, I am a software developer.   So maybe I'm not doing what others are doing.

 

Why would you want to ever have it scroll into an area you can't see?

 

If using a brush, you'll overwrite something you didn't mean to.  If using the lasso, you'll end up selecting something off-screen you didn't mean to.   That's all I can see, so I'm missing something here.

Edited by EternalNY1

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The whole purpose is to move the corners of the canvas to the center of the screen where they are easier to work on.

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I do not understand the point of overscroll either with one exception...

 

When trying to adjust a curve's points, if it is near the edge of the screen/image, I will be unable to move the control points far enough to get the curve I want.

But this is pretty minor and generally I just drag the line to another spot, move the points and reposition it for finishing touches.

 

If the only other advantage is "not looking to the edge of the screen", I think this is totally insufficient for the frustration this causes.

 

Maybe overscroll could be implemented differently?

I bet more users are annoyed by it than delighted.

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Here is an idea, return the program to how it used to work, but have a button to toggle a border around the image!

 

If the button is pressed it adds some non-editable (no memory usage) background looking space to the sides of the image, press the button again and the framing disappears.

 

I mean, basically that is all overscroll is (isn't it?), it is like making an image larger, increasing the canvas size and only allowing drawing in the middle.

 

Though for some reason the zoom has been messed with so the patch you click on no longer becomes the center of the zoomed image, instead the image floats around in an almost random fashion to the top left of the screen for reasons I cannot fathom.

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The whole purpose is to move the corners of the canvas to the center of the screen where they are easier to work on.

 

And, overscroll allows you to move about the image without having to worry about the placement of the 4 floating windows (Tools, History, Layers, Colors). If they are docked to any edge or corner of the main window then it is not possible (without overscroll, anyway) to edit certain parts of the image without first moving a floating window out of the way. And this can be a constant struggle.

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The whole purpose is to move the corners of the canvas to the center of the screen where they are easier to work on.

All you have to do is reduce the image enough (like 75%) and then you have no problem. Overscroll is overkill, big time.

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And, overscroll allows you to move about the image without having to worry about the placement of the 4 floating windows (Tools, History, Layers, Colors). If they are docked to any edge or corner of the main window then it is not possible (without overscroll, anyway) to edit certain parts of the image without first moving a floating window out of the way. And this can be a constant struggle.

Thanks for your input, Rick, but haven't users learned to simply drag any tool windows they like - to outside the main window? How hard is that? Also, someone said overscroll allows working on the corner of an image. Really? C'mon ... again, simply reduce the image size temporarily enough to get at the corner. PLEASE :) consider removing overscroll or make it a user option. Thanks.

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Thanks for your input, Rick, but haven't users learned to simply drag any tool windows they like - to outside the main window? How hard is that? Also, someone said overscroll allows working on the corner of an image. Really? C'mon ... again, simply reduce the image size temporarily enough to get at the corner. PLEASE :) consider removing overscroll or make it a user option. Thanks.

 

When doing graphic design – precision work – you can't reduce the size otherwise you could make mistakes or not get the desired result. And moving the windows constantly? Major hassle.

As someone who does a lot of design in PDN, overscroll is amazing.

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When doing graphic design – precision work – you can't reduce the size otherwise you could make mistakes or not get the desired result. And moving the windows constantly? Major hassle.

As someone who does a lot of design in PDN, overscroll is amazing.

I only keep three tool windows open all the time (tools, color and history) and they sit on the side (tools) and top (color & history) and I never have to move them.

 

As far as reducing the size, I am only referring to reducing the "view" percentage just enough so you can get at the edges and corners. Doesn't change the image at all, other than the view. I've never had any problems.

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When doing graphic design – precision work – you can't reduce the size otherwise you could make mistakes or not get the desired result. And moving the windows constantly? Major hassle.

As someone who does a lot of design in PDN, overscroll is amazing.

I've never had a problem editing the corners before overscroll, I zoom till the pictures big enough to work on detail. As for the floating windows, if one is in the way I close it, and reopen it later. I click for closing, one to reopen, simple.

The greater part of my image editing isn't done on PDN, but I still use it as it has one feature my favourite editor doesn't. But overscroll is such a pain I'll look for an alternative, Pixr Desktop looks a good bet.

I'm not complaining, I never do regarding free software, I'm grateful to those who supply it to us. Rick may sometimes feel a bit frustrated when, after he's put in a lot of hard work on new features, some of us say we don't like them. Still, I expect he appreciates feedback, even negative, if presented in a reasonable manner. 

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Again, I ask.  What does overscroll do that a "frame" you can toggle on and off around the canvass (or maybe even change the size of said frame) wouldn't do?

 

It seems to be that's all overscroll is, a border around the canvas, an extension to the canvass you can move around but not draw on.

 

Well, just make such an extension toggled on and off with a button, simple!  It sounds so simple I almost think I could code it and I can't code :)   Not counting ASM on the C64.

 

Indeed what was stopping those who wanted overscroll from adding a temporary border around their image in the first place?

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Well, just make such an extension toggled on and off with a button, simple!  It sounds so simple I almost think I could code it and I can't code :) 

 

We get that you don't like overscroll. You've made your point.

 

I can guarantee the inner workings of paint.net are a GREAT DEAL more complex than you imagine. Making posts like this is being grossly disrespectful to Rick and minimizes all the hard work he puts in and gives you FOR FREE.

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  • New: You can now hold Ctrl+Shift while clicking on the floating window icons in order to reset their location and docking. Ctrl+Shift along with the appropriate hotkey (F5, F6, F7, F8) also does the trick.

 

I got excited when I saw this. I thought, "Is it possible that P.N has finally joined the ranks of every other graphics editor in the known universe, and finally 'remembers' where you leave dialog boxes, so they don't always open smack in the middle of what you're doing and must be dragged out of the way every... single... time... you... use... them...?"

 

Alas, no. I don't know why I got that idea. Wishful thinking, I guess.

 

P.N's programmers obviously know how to save control locations, because those icon-related ones (Tools, History, etc.) are always restored where you left them—not just when you close and reopen them, but between sessions. That, my friends, is an otherwise standard practice that users have valued since, what? Windows 3.1?

 

So what possible reason can there be for not making the positions of all dialog boxes [a.k.a. "windows"] persistent? Especially considering how often you want to preview your changes while the boxes are open? What possible reason can there be to having a box automatically obscure the image you're trying to use it to modify? To create a certain sense of mystery, perhaps? Or maybe to help us appreciate things that aren't chronically inconvenient?

 

If only the rest of P.N weren't so good. It's like having a girlfriend who keeps feeling compelled to get up and stand in the middle of the room.

 

mona_who.jpg

Edited by anderpainter

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I do not understand the point of overscroll either with one exception...

 

When trying to adjust a curve's points, if it is near the edge of the screen/image, I will be unable to move the control points far enough to get the curve I want.

But this is pretty minor and generally I just drag the line to another spot, move the points and reposition it for finishing touches.

 

Any time I've ever needed to do something like this, I do what I do in every other program ... I zoom out with the selection kept.

 

Generally with CTRL+mousewheel out.

 

Same thing I do to set the zoom level in the web browser, the font size in Visual Studio, etc.

 

And, overscroll allows you to move about the image without having to worry about the placement of the 4 floating windows (Tools, History, Layers, Colors). If they are docked to any edge or corner of the main window then it is not possible (without overscroll, anyway) to edit certain parts of the image without first moving a floating window out of the way. And this can be a constant struggle.

That doesn't make any sense either.

I get annoyed with the docked layers, colors, toolbox too ... but you know what I do?

Zoom out of the image the same was mentioned above. It's extremely simple, keeps your selection, brings it back into view.

And you can just do the opposite to get back in close ... move the mouse cursor over an area, CTRL+mousewheel in. This whole "overscroll" thing is a huge productivity killer so far and a huge annoyance.

 

When doing graphic design – precision work – you can't reduce the size otherwise you could make mistakes or not get the desired result. And moving the windows constantly? Major hassle.

As someone who does a lot of design in PDN, overscroll is amazing.

People who do precision graphical design work use other powerhouse programs like ... Photoshop?

I use Paint.net for professional, precision graphic design also. That's not what they pay me for, but it's always a part of my job and I've gotten good at it with PDN and not having to have them budget for PS.

It does what I need it to do. And I'm talking .PDN files with 20+ layers, complex overlays with different blend types, working with "curves", etc.

So I'd say I'm a power-user of Paint.Net, but see no benefit to this feature.

What I do "do", oddly enough, is write software, and C# in .Net is a big part of that (what Paint.Net is written in).

This can be fixed. Make it an option setting, or if that's not comfortable, hide it from the users (advanced settings, executable flag, etc).

This is not a monumental task given what has already been done to make this software, it just needs a little refactoring to "overscroll or don't overscroll".

I don't want to go elsewhere, because Paint.net is awesome ... but this feature has got to go. Or make it configurable, please!

Edited by EternalNY1

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And, overscroll allows you to move about the image without having to worry about the placement of the 4 floating windows (Tools, History, Layers, Colors). If they are docked to any edge or corner of the main window then it is not possible (without overscroll, anyway) to edit certain parts of the image without first moving a floating window out of the way. And this can be a constant struggle.

 

Or, just hold down the control key and roll back with the mousewheel (which you most likely have a hand on already) and see the part that was obscured.

 

Otherwise, this new "feature" lets you handle stuff under floating windows, which I can't see a use for.  And if you move off the image surface itself, then it will scroll so you can't even see what you were working on at all!

 

Here's a simple example of the issue:

 

Let's say I had a section in the top right corner I needed to lasso-select.   It used to be extremely intuitive, just start off-canvas, swing around, and stop:

 

HjmmBE9.png

 

If you do this nice and quick like usual, and your cursor hits any side of the screen, here's what you get:

 

PzRF4Yd.png

 

This is useless.  

 

Why would I ever want it to scroll into this off-image area where the screen is ... well, its nothing.

 

At least it was nice enough to show me a small bit of the area I had selected.

Edited by EternalNY1

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